my three month itinerary

[britalexis]

I tried to plan this strategically on weather reasoning. I do not want to be dealing with a cold winter, like we have in canada, since i will be travelling from September till December. It is in order.. ( doing eastern->northern->central->southern europe was my "weather strategic plan"..)
Vienna(salzburg)-4 days
Prague-3
Munich-3
Berlin-5
Amsterdam-3
Dublin-2
Edinburgh-2
London(oxford)-8
Bruges-3
Paris(versailles & normandy)-7
Nice-4
Barcelona-3
Madrid-2
Ljubljana-2
Dubrovnik-2
Athens-2
Naples(capri & pompeii)-3
Rome-7
Pisa-2
Cinque Terre-3
Venice-3
Milan-2
* any inputs for this itinerary. i will be travelling solo, and have been to euro once before for 11 days, but with a group.
*p.s. - i purposly dont have florence in here, i've been there, and wouldn't care to go back.

[herrbert]

Hi Britalexis,

If you want to plan your trip with the weather in mind, you are doing the smart thing. But I also think that you also planned a little but with just the map in mind. I see a couple of problems as it comes to connections.

You want to fly Madrid - to Slovenia, that will be a problem, Also you are in Vienna at the start of your trip, and Ljubljana is not that far away. Also the connection between Dubrovnik and Athens is a long one, and Athens isn't as hot in the fall or winter as one believes.

For the best weather in December, you aught the be looking for the South of Spain, and Portugal, and the south of Italy. So places like Sevilla and Cadiz in Spain, and Lagos in Portugal. Milan, Venice and Cinque Terre are in Italy but too much North to be certain of good weather.

Another question: are there cheap airline tickets from your place to Vienna and Milan. An Open jaw flight would be best, but it depends on the airlines, which airports you can use. Usually London, Paris and Frankfurt are the airports that are cheapest to get to from Canada or the States.

About the places:
Vienna(salzburg)-4 days - Make Salzburg a seperate stop, between Vienna and Prague. Keep the 4 days in Vienna, and 1 in Salzburg. If you travel to Prague from here you will pass Cesky Krumlov, you might want to spend a day here.
Prague-3 - seems alright -make sure about the connections, the connection to Dresden/Berlin is easier.
Munich-3 - daytrip to the Castles near Füssen?
Berlin-5 - 4 days is OK (5 is nice)
Amsterdam-3 (maybe place A'dam after London)
Dublin-2 - A little short, unless you have two whole days, and travel is not included. If it is just Dublin you want to see in Ireland, reconsider if you wan to make the effort.
Edinburgh-2 - A little short, and basicly the same comment about effort
London(oxford)-8A massive 8 days, if you planned Oxford as a daytrip, you have 7 left, and even for me, that would be a lot. Remember the UK is expensive!
Bruges-3
Paris(versailles & normandy)-7 - Seems a lot, but it would depend on how much time you need to visit Normandy, i wouldn't recommend it as just a daytrip.
Nice-4 - can't really comment, but the trainride between Nice and Barcelona is a very long one.
Barcelona-3 - for only seeing Barcelona, it should be OK, but there are daytrips you can consider like Girona and Figueres.
Madrid-2 Breaks my heart, 2 is just enough to see the city really fast, a daytrip to Toledo is a must, and if you can find the time, also check out Segovia.
Ljubljana-2 as said before, I don't think that flying is an option, and if it is it would kill you budget.
Dubrovnik-2 it's a difficult place to have in a initerary, as far as connections is concerned, maybe opt for a flight, or boat to Italy from here.
Athens-2 - needs 3 days, if you want to visit the islands you need to do it in September. If you don't want to visit the islands, then make sure if this is a must see. (there a easyjet flight to Athens from Milan, making it an easier connection, than by train from Dubrovnik)
Naples(capri & pompeii)-3 - Be aware of were you go in Naples, there are neighbourhoods you don't want to go. You can also consider Sorrento/Amalfi Coast. That would also make the trips to Capri and Pompeii easier.
Rome-7 The more the better?
Pisa-2 maybe 2 hours is better. Besides the leaning tower, the cathedral and the city center, there is not much to do.
Cinque Terre-3 Which one?, 3 days should cover it.
Venice-3 2 or 3 days is enough
Milan-2 - shoe shoppers paradise, if you are interested in the Last supper or the Duomo, then go, but other wise it's overrated.

[pointofnoreturn]

Just a few comments...

Dublin: It's better to see Dublin as part of an Ireland itinerary. To be honest, most people go to Dublin to see the colleges and they're often left disappointed. However, Ireland is better visited with a driving itinerary. I'd save Dublin for another trip. Even better, allocate the days to Edinburgh!

Edinburgh: 3-4 days is better

London: London itself requires a minimum of 5 days. You can easily do 1 or 2 day trips. London can be expensive but if you do the right research, you'll be okay. That requires booking WAY ahead of time.

Paris: I honestly wanted to get out of Paris after 3 days. It's a huge city with great museums but man... 7 days would be way too much for me. 4-5 days is more ideal and that even includes a day trip to Versailles, as I had done.

Athens: No point in visiting unless you're planning to do the islands. I'd save Greece for another trip. Athens is very dense and compact and everything can be seen in a day. Save your transport money for Italy.

Naples: Could be done as a day trip from Rome. Naples is very gritty and dirty and can be a real eye opener.

Rome: I visited Rome for 5 days and it wasn't enough! A week is great. You can make 1 or 2 day trips.

Venice: Would prefer Florence

Milan: Not worth it. Overpriced, small and only thing worth seeing is the great Last Supper which you must book 3 months in advance.

[WillTravel]

If you want Cinque Terre in your trip, and want to go hiking, you'll need to put it at the start. By December, I don't think the hiking trails are even open, but double-check that.

Milan and Venice will not be warm in December. But December is a great time to visit Venice, because it's less crowded. I haven't been to Milan, but I agree with the above posters. It's hard to do Milan cheaply, from my investigations, and there's less to see than there is elsewhere.

I like more days in Venice, particularly if you add daytrips (but I had four nights, and still did not get around to any daytrips, due to being so busy when there).

For Paris, there is an endless amount to see, so I like lots of days there, but I have to admit that some people are not partial to it.

There are budget flights to/from Ljubljana, but you'd have to readjust your itinerary for them. You could include the Italian city of Trieste, and travel overland from Venice to Trieste to Ljubljana, but then you would have to cut elsewhere. Each of these is about a 2-hour trip from the next. I haven't been to Trieste or Ljubljana, but am eager to do so from what I have read.

[Eagle]

britalexis, first of all, welcome to the Boards! You've got some good suggestions so far, and I've got a few comments and questions as well.

In order to suggest an adequate number of days in each city, it would help to know what you're most interested in seeing? Are you interested in Museums, Art Galleries, Architecture, cultural sites? In the evenings, were you planning to do night clubs or Bars?

In looking over your Itinerary, the first thought that comes to mind is that there's a lot of "back & forth" trips. Those tend to be inefficient, and will waste both time and money. I'm sure this could be streamlined somewhat, still keeping with your objective to travel the northern countries first. Also, as always, I'd recommend "open jaw" flights for best efficiency.

Would something like this work for you:

> Dublin - begin your trip here. You might consider adding a day (3 days?), considering you'll lose the first day in flight times and time zone changes (you'll arrive in Europe on the day after departure, tired and jet lagged!). You can fly from Vancouver to Belfast direct (Zoom Air), and then take the train to Dublin, Connolly station (it's an easy two hour trip). Take a Taxi to your Hotel.

> Edinburgh - you should be able to fly direct from Dublin, but I'd have to check to determine what the flight options are (perhaps one of the others has the details at hand). I'd make this stop 3 days as well.

> London - 8 days sounds good. What sights are you planning to visit? Also, what's the purpose of the visit to Oxford?

> Paris - were you planning on taking the EuroStar (if so, it now departs from the newly renovated St. Pancras station - easy to reach on the Tube). Could you elaborate on what you want to see in Normandy? I'd recommend at least two days if you're planning on touring any of the D-Day sites. Bayeux is a good home base. I'll leave it to the others for comments on Versailles.

> Bruges - good choice, it's a favourite here. You'll probably have to change trains in Brussels.

> Amsterdam - What were you planning to see there?

> Berlin - it's a bit of a long train journey, so you might consider budget flight for that route. I'd have to check to see what flights are available (there's a link to Euro budget flights on the home page of this site - click on the logo at the top of this page to get to the home page). I agree with herrbert that four days would probably be adequate, but depends on what you want to see.

> Prague - three days sounds about right. You might consider travelling south via Cesky Krumlov, but I'd have to check the rail connections (hopefully one of the others can advise?).

> Vienna / Salzburg - I agree with herrbert, it would be good to spend at least one day in Salzburg. Another nice area is the Salzkammergut and Hallstatt. I heard a rumour recently that tiny Hallstatt has become a bit of a "party stop" for younger travellers, however I haven't been able to verify that.

> Munich - this is a fairly short trip from Salzburg, so it seems logical to fit it in here. What are you planning to see in Munich? If you're planning to visit either Dachau and/or Neuschwanstein Castle, I'd highly recommend these as day trips with Radius Tours. Check their web site for details.

> Ljubljana - this will probably be a 6 hour+ rail trip from Munich, but would have to check.

> Dubrovnik - this is a bit problematic in terms of "travel efficiency" due to the location. It's a bit "out of the way" for just a two day visit. It could be fit in later via Ferry from Italy, but that would depend on how important this is?

> Venice - three days sounds great! That's about the time I spent there last fall. There should be fairly easy rail connections from Ljubljana, and I don't believe it's a long trip.

> Milan - I have to agree with PONR. While it certainly has some attractions, it's not one of my favourite cities. The rail station is one of the most unpleasant I've ever visited! Unless you're planning to see The Last Supper (reservations needed long in advance), you might just use this as a transit point.

> Pisa - again, I agree with the others here. Other than the Leaning Tower, there's not a lot of reason to spend so much time here. You could easily stop for a few hours on your way to the Cinque Terre to see the Tower.

> Cinque Terre - one of my favourites! It's definitely a great place to rest and "recharge the batteries" after stressful travel. Be sure to try Pesto in the area where it was invented! You'll have to decide which of the five villages you want to stay in. Each of them has unique qualities. If you need any suggestions from the group, post another note.

> Rome - seven days is good, but there's lots to see. What sites are you planning to see?

> Naples / Capri / Pompeii - three days sounds good, but Naples tends to be a bit "gritty and intense". You might enjoy basing somewhere in the Amalfi coast area, and doing daytrips from there (Sorrento, Positano). Note that you can take the train to Naples, but have use the local Circumvesuviana from there (as I recall, someone had a post here recently that described the transportation options in more detail?).

> Nice - four days sounds good, with day trips. There appears to be a budget flight available from Rome Fiumicino to Nice with blu-express but perhaps one of the others can provide further info.

> Madrid / Barcelona - this is a long rail trip, so you might consider budget flights. Vueling flys from Nice to either destination. You might want to visit Barcelona first and then Madrid?

> Athens - that's another problematic stop. It's a long way to go and likely a bit expensive for just two days. Again, I agree with PONR that you might want to leave this for a future visit, one where you can also see Santorini, Crete or some of the other locations. Many of the tourist facilities on the islands pretty much shut down over the winter, so it's not the best time.

As herrbert mentioned, you might also consider the south of Spain or Portugal. This might fit well at the end of your trip in December. For the flight home you might be able to find a return flight from the Algarve, as the tours from Canada should be running at that time of year. I believe Zoom and Air Transat discontinue flights to most Europe destinations at the end of October (except to the U.K.??), so base your last destination on ease of flights home.

You didn't indicate whether you'd be using a Rail Pass? Keep in mind you can purchase Eurail Passes from the home page of this site, which helps to support our efforts here.

One final detail - with a four month trip you'll have to be aware of the "Schengen limit" for travel in the E.U. Non-residents are only allowed three months maximum in the Schengen zone, which might have expanded now that some of the eastern countries have joined. Hopefully one of our other members can provide some further details on that.

Hope this helps? Good luck with your planning!

[herrbert]

> Madrid / Barcelona - this is a long rail trip, so you might consider budget flights. Vueling flys from Nice to either destination. You might want to visit Barcelona first and then Madrid?

Don't forget that the first high speed trains between Barcelona and Madrid are making their testruns. But haven't seen them show up in the timetable of renfe. From what I understand, there were some delays in the construction of one of the tunnels near Barcelona. At this moment you can get from Madrid to Camp de Tarragona in 2,5 hours, and from Tarragona to Barcelona takes another hour, but 3,5 hours is not bad, compared to the normal trains taking 7.

btw. also other lines are opened: Madrid - Segovia - Valladolid, and Madrid - Malága (Malága in under 3 hours!)

[britalexis]

thanks all, for the advice. Eagle, to answer your questions.

-to be honest, i just put dublin in there, because ive heard that it is really good. I don't really know what there is much to do of, and im not too interested in the universities.. But i just want to see more of the Irish culture and the people.

-london, i want to see from the buckingham palace, kensington palace(and other sites for princess di), british museum, Lond eye, Thames bridge, Westminister Abbey, Shakespeares globe, etc..

-paris, this i am still a little confused about. Does only the eurostar go from brugges to paris, or from what ive read, can't i take eurail?My purpose to Normandy is definatly just to visit the memorial sites and D-day sites.

-bruges, yes i will have to change trains in brussels.

-amsterdam, i want to see the van gough museum, the red light district, anne frank house, and some other museums too.

-dubrovnik, this stuns me as to how inaccessible it is to get here. but again, to be honest, i put this in here, because a close friend of mine, had highly recommended it to me.

-milan, the whole purpose was to see the last supper, and a little bit of shopping. I honestly think i would find it worth it, to book three months in advance to see it. Da Vinci's work, just amazes me like nothing else.

-pisa,i think i will maybe just stop here for a few hours on my way to pisa. thanks!

-cinque terre, i really think i would best like monterosso al mare. for the sandy beach reason.. not really so much to really bask in under the sun in december, but just seems like a place i would want to stay even though more touristy.

-rome, i want to see all major sites basically. and with a few down days in the middle, just to soak in the italian culture.

-nice/barcelona- even though a long trip, i wouldn't really mind having a scenic tour of that area along the coast.

-barcelona/madrid - i am doing barcelona first.

-athens, i want to go to greece. that is basically it. and in the december it is obvious to me, that its hard to get to the islands. so.

[britalexis]

okay, so ive sat down and tried to make this itinerary a bit less consumed by travelling time. I haven't changed the number of days staying. And still tried to accomodate around geography climate.Here it goes, tell me what you think.
Still fly into ..
Vienna
(train-3hrs)
Salzburg
(train-2 hrs)
Ljubljana
(train-7 hrs)
Munich
(train-6 hrs)
Prague
(train-5hrs)
Berlin
(train-7 hrs)
Amsterdam
(fly-easyjet)
Edinburgh
(train-5hrs)
London
(boat/train-4hrs)
Bruges
(train-6 hrs)
Paris
(train-3 hrs)
Normandy
(train back to paris-3hrs)
(train-6hrs)
Nice
(train-11 hrs)
Barcelona
(train-6 hrs)
Madrid
(fly back to Barcelona via Ryanair to be able to take Clickair flight to naples)
Naples
(train-5hrs)
Bari
(round-trip ferry to patras, by superfast ferries)
(train back to naples-5hrs)
Amalfi coast
(train-2 hrs)
Rome
(train-3 hrs)
Pisa
(train-1.5 hrs)
Cinque Terre - monterosso al mare
(train-2 hrs)
Milan
(train-3 hrs)
Venice
---Back to canada

[me]

quick thing that strikes me right off the bat:

fly from not-so-Nice to Madrid, Vueling has such flights. then fly to Barcelona via Ryanair. after a visit there, take a Clickair flight to Naples.

my own visit to Nice, many - many years ago, has turned me off to visiting France.

but, more recent events have made me think about a return. maybe even a first trip to Paris.

edit:, some of those longer train rides might have the option of going at night. why waste a vacation day sitting on a train? ya gotta sleep anyway. why not sleep your way between places?

- d

[britalexis]

yes, about night trains. how do i know whether there will be a night train or not? Do the trains run all night? or only until say midnight or something?

[francefiend]

paris, this i am still a little confused about. Does only the eurostar go from brugges to paris, or from what ive read, can't i take eurail?My purpose to Normandy is definatly just to visit the memorial sites and D-day sites.

You can most definitely take regular rail from Bruges to Paris. As per Eagle's suggestion, use Bayeux as a base. Visit the Tourism Office for more information.

Versailles
I would only recommend visiting Versailles if you have a full week in Paris, UNLESS 1) Paris begins to drive you insane 2) you only want to see the gardens - themselves quite spectacular, during the right season...not sure if you'll be there before fall.

Some of your train times are incorrect:

Bruges -> Paris
(train-6 hrs) - 2.5-4.5, with connections in Lille or Bruxelles. One or two Thalys trains are direct.

Paris <-> Bayeux
(train-3 hrs) - 2 hours to Bayeux on Corail-Intercités train with no connections; 2.5 with a connection in Caen - nice town, small train station.

yes, about night trains. how do i know whether there will be a night train or not? Do the trains run all night? or only until say midnight or something?

Some routes have night trains with sleeping accommodations. To check for night trains, look for trains with evening departure times that also have morning arrival times. You can choose from a private room, double room, a couchette with 2-5 other people (both sexes), or in some cases, a "sleeperette," a reclining chair (read: uncomfortable!!). You may search for trains using Rail Europe (affiliate link for GFE), SNCF (for trains involving France), or Die Bahn (for German trains, also useful for timetables).

[me]

one knows about night trains from the same place as about day trains - on a train schedule. no? at least, that's where i find the info.

the most comprehensive europe train listing i know of is www.bahn.de which is in German. the English URL is a bit longer: www.bahn.de/international/view/en/index.shtml

on the left side of the page, plug in your from and to places in the given fields. for night trains, i choose "arrival" and give a morning time.

it might ask you to choose the from & to names from a list, if it doesn't recognize the names, or there are more than one station at the place you give.

EDIT: forgot to answer the other questions. yes, the night trains run all night. although, a night train i took between Lisbon & Madrid [or, was it between Madrid & Barcelona?] slowed WAY down in the night. (as i was jet-lagged, i woke up for a few minutes and noticed how slowly the train was going)

- d

britalexis said:

yes, about night trains. how do i know whether there will be a night train or not? Do the trains run all night? or only until say midnight or something?

[pointofnoreturn]

I forgot to mention.... regarding the Italian trains.... if you're traveling on a tight budget, you can save lots of money by booking the slow trains (R 'regional') trains which are almost half the price but perhaps an hour or two longer.

[Eagle]

britalexis, I have a few more comments to add to the great replies from the others.

One of the main reasons I chose the order of cities in the sample Itinerary I posted, was the availability of inexpensive flights from your departure airport (probably Vancouver). The charters (Air Transat, Zoom) are usually the cheapest, although Air Canada (and others) sometimes have promotions or sales, but these likely won't be posted until later in the year. The charters reduce or discontinue some flights for the winter, so the availability of destinations is not as good in December. So after reading your latest tentative Itinerary, I wondered whether you've researched the costs of open-jaw flights to Vienna and home from Venice?

The order of cities in your latest Itinerary still seems a bit convoluted (Amsterdam to Edinburgh and London and then back to Paris). You're crossing the Channel twice as opposed to once, which will cost both time and money. That's why I suggested starting in the U.K. (north) and then moving to the continent.

One point regarding night trains - if you're planning to use these, there are two things to keep in mind:

1.) If you're renting a Couchette, there's an additional charge for this (roughly the same cost as a Hostel), which is not included in the cost of a Rail pass. The Couchette charge and reservation fees (if required) must be paid separately.

2.) and perhaps most important, it's a really good idea to select night train routes with no changes. Some routes have as many as five changes during the trip, and should you pick one of those, you won't be getting much sleep (kind of negates the benefit of paying for a Couchette).

The trip to Patras seems like a long and expensive side trip for just a day or two, but of course that's your choice. My preference would be to leave Greece for a future trip, and tour some of the Islands as well.

Good luck with your planning!

[britalexis]

Eagle, thank you for the suggestions, i really appreciate it. Thanks to you, i have found some great inexpensive convienant flights to take ( by zoom airlines, they have a greater selection of destinations than air transit ). I have researched the costs of flying into vienna, and out from venice. I searched around, and found it works out just fine, for me to fly to/from those destinations by the smaller airlines (like zoom and british airways ) to a bigger airport ( basically either london gatwick or heathrow ) and fly from there.

I think what ive found i'll do, about the "crossing the english channel" situation, is just fly from amsterdam to edinburgh by easyjet. and take my eurostar pass back from london to bruges ( switch trains at brussels station ). im honestly not too worried about going back and forth for that part of the trip. As for dublin, at this point im thinking of leaving out of my itinerary. Some of you have made me realize that it just isn't worth it, if i don't really know what im going to see there, and to go throu the hassle, if i am only going to stay for like 2 or 3 nights.

This may sound silly to some of you, but ive only been to europe once and my first destination was vienna, although i was with a group of other people. I honestly think that with me being a young female, now travelling to europe for the first time by myself that it may be a little bit more comforting for me to start out somewhere where i've been, and really felt like home. Just so i can kind of mentally get into being alone in a whole other continent, but yet still starting out somewhere somewhat familiar. So i really like the idea of starting my trip in vienna.

Thank you also eagle for the helpful points on the night trains.
Thanks everyone for your time in writing on here to help me out.