Best of Western Europe

[nilesh]

Objective: Tour best of Europe in 17 Days and 16 Nights
Travelers Profile: Indians, Me (31) and my wife (26), been to UK, want to explore Europe’s best.
Likes: Famous monuments in good shape, Mountains and Lakes, beautiful cities, Romantic & Historical places, e.g. On our last tour in UK, even though we found Edinburgh to be very beautiful, we did not enjoy due to its weather.
Dislikes: Cold and windy weather, too much of Art and Museums, old ruined places, changing hotels frequently. e.g. At the same time we enjoyed most in Lake District, even though there wasn’t much to see.

Plan:
France (5Days-4Nights) - Paris (4 day, including Versailles), Lorie Valley (1 day)
Overnight Train from Paris to Venice
Italy (6Days-5Nights) - Venice (2 day), Rome (3 day) and Florence (1 day)
Overnight Train from Florence/Rome to Zurich (Get off at Spiez)
Switzerland (6 Days-5Nights) – Wengen (2/3 day), Lucerne (2 day), Bern (1 day)
Train from Bern to Paris

Question1: Is my choice of places correct? Are there better options, if yes, please suggest? I had thought about dropping Switzerland for Austria and Prague, would that be a better option for me?

Question2: Is my plan too ambitious, will I be getting sufficient time to enjoy the places?

Question3: Is my order of travel correct or I should go with France, Switzerland and Italy?

Question4: What would be a reasonable budget for such a plan?

[WillTravel]

I think if you hate changing hotels frequently, I'd cut the number of places in about half. For Italy, for example, I'd feel happier with double of everything. I'm not saying that is what you should do, but there is so much to see in those 3 cities, plus you can do daytrips if you want, and it really helps to feel a little settled in.

What time of year are you traveling? If you hate rainy, cold, and windy weather, that covers much of the year in Europe, particularly northern Europe.

[nilesh]

We are planning it in May-June, I belive it is the best time to visit Italy and France. Yeah you are right we could restrict our trip to France and Italy which are our top priority and it would also make it lighter on our pockets as Switzerland is pretty expensive.
If we go by your suggestion, we should spend 5 days around paris and around 10 days in Italy(5-6 Rome, 3Venice, 2Florence). Which are the day outs you would suggest? and also what should be a reasonable budget for such a trip? Please advice?

[WillTravel]

For budget, consider these points:
What type of hotels do you have in mind? Try www.hotelscombined.com for starters.

How much do you plan to eat in restaurants? If you stay somewhere with breakfast included, have a late lunch restaurant meal, and then buy something from the market for supper, that's probably the cheapest plan. Or you could have 3 expensive meals per day, plus gelato and coffee and crepes, etc. at the other extreme.

How much sightseeing do you want to do?
In Italy particularly, the major sights can be rather pricey, although I think they are definitely worth it.

For daytrips, just a few ideas:
Versailles from Paris
Orvieto from Rome
Siena from Florence (or Pisa or Lucca or Volterra)
Verona or Padua from Venice

[nilesh]

Thanks for the link, it is very useful.
We are on tight budget and would not be eating out in expensive restaurants at all. We would be taking our lunch mostly at fast food joints such as McDonald's, Pizza Hut etc and then buy something from super market for supper. I think 20 Euro per day on food should be sufficient for us.
As far as hotels goes, our budget is around 60 Euro (Max 70), we want basic accommodation, not very far off from sight seeing locations and should have attached toilet(we do not want to stay in hostels, where one needs to share toilets). I am thinking of booking hotels at least 2 months in advance, what do you think, is it a good idea?

So, our Food + Accommodation should not exceed (70+20=90, which means 90*15=1350 Euro). Do you think it is reasonable?

As far as travel and sightseeing goes, what do you think should be our budget?
i.e. Paris - Sightseeing + Versailles + Lorie Valley
Venice Sightseeing + Day out
Rome Sightseeing + Day out + Half Day Walking Tour
Florence Sightseeing + Day out

We want to spend as much as possible on sightseeing and want to do at least one half day guided tour in Venice, Rome and Florence.

My original budget for this Trip was 3000 Euros(trip starting at Paris and ending at Paris), Is my budget sufficient?

Note: Please exclude the train/air ticket from Paris to Italy from your estimate.

[WillTravel]

If you want a hotel room with a private bathroom in a central location in those cities, then you may (almost certainly) will need to spend more than 60 Euros per night, particularly if you don't spend a *lot* of time hunting down bargains. You're not going at a time where great bargains are available, for the most part. I'd be thinking more in terms of at least 100 Euros per night, considering the month, the cities, the central locations, and the private bathroom requirements.

You may do this cheaper if you start looking now, and carefully consider third-party booking services. Note that private hostel rooms can have private bathrooms - you just have to look and book carefully.

McDonald's is really not that cheap in Europe. If you need 20 Euros for two people, it's not a reasonable amount. If you focus on cheap and good and don't eat in restaurants, then maybe 20 Euros per person per day.

Considering your daytrips, your guided tours, sightseeing admissions, and local transport, I think you should expect 25-50 Euros per person per day on that.

So I would be thinking along these lines per person, per day:
50 Euros accommodation + 20 Euros food + 40 Euros sightseeing, tours, local transport, and misc., so averaging about 220 Euros per day for two. Then transport between cities would be an additional cost. I know it sounds horribly expensive, but Europe is expensive for the cities you are visiting and the time you are traveling.

[nilesh]

Thanks a lot. It's been my pleasure getting all the valuable info that you have provided. Now I have a rough idea that I need at least 3500 Euro(excluding Airfare) for my 15 day trip. Hopefully I should be able to save it by May. Please keep up the good work you are doing through this website.
Cheers,
Nilesh

[Eagle]

nilesh,

First of all, welcome to GFE! I have a few comments to add to those W.T. mentioned.

Your proposed Itinerary looks reasonably good, however I also feel that you'll need to drop some of the destinations in order to provide adequate times for travel between cities.

Could you elaborate on why you chose Wengen, Lucerne and Bern in Switzerland? It would probably be a good idea to drop at least one of these. You might also have a look at the Berner Oberland in Switzerland (just outside Interlaken) as it's a beautiful area.

Now a few comments on specific points you mentioned....

As far as hotels goes, our budget is around 60 Euro (Max 70)

I haven't checked, but I suspect you're going to have a difficult time finding Hotels in that price range in most major cities in Europe, especially in May/June. You might want to check some Guidebooks to get some idea of the Hotel price ranges for a double room. You could also check Hostel websites.

I think 20 Euro per day on food should be sufficient for us.

It's going to be VERY difficult to provide food for two people on that budget, especially at McDonald's and Pizza Hut. In many cases, breakfast will be provided at your Hotel, so that will be taken care of. The breakfasts will vary depending on which part of Europe you're in. In some cases this will just be a roll, coffee and juice (Italy) and in other cases you'll have a wide selection of meats, cheeses, breads, cereals, yogurt, etc. to choose from (Switzerland and possibly Paris). My suggestion would be to dine occasionally at fast food restaurants as a "splurge", but primarily use food from Deli's and local markets. You should be able to get breads, meats, juice, etc. from markets for very reasonable cost.

Overnight Train from Florence/Rome to Zurich (Get off at Spiez)

Could you clarify this point? There's no need to take an "overnight train" from Florence to Rome, as the trip is only 1H:40M via EuroStar Italia. While on this topic, I'd suggest spending more than one day in Florence. It's a beautiful city with an incredible history, and there's lots to see. Again, I believe you'll need to "trim" some of the cities from your list in order to achieve a more realistic Itinerary.

As this is your first trip to the continent, I'd highly recommend reading the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door before you go. Although it's published in the U.S., it may be available in local Libraries or book stores. That will provide lots of information on things like rail skills, language and cultural issues, etc. Some of the other country or city-specific Guidebooks from the same author have great suggestions for lodgings in various price ranges in all of the cities you'll be visiting, restaurant suggestions, transportation info, museum and gallery open & close times, admission prices, etc. For comparison, you could also check some of the Guidebooks from Lonely Planet, Let's Go, Rough Guides, Fodors, Cadogan Guides, etc.

You might consider purchase of a www.parismuseumpass.com/en/home.php as that will provide a cost effective way to see a lot of the major sites and helps to avoid long queue's. The two-day version would probably be good for your situation.

One final point is that western Europe can be expensive, so it's important to allow a bit of room in your budget for "unexpected expenses". I'd suggest travelling with at least two ATM cards (preferably on different accounts) and at least one credit card for "emergencies". Travel funds accessed from ATM's must normally be in a chequing account with a four number PIN. Regarding credit cards, Europe is quickly transitioning to the new "chip and PIN" cards, so if you don't have a card of that type you may have problems in some areas.

I've found that careful planning and good information helps to avoid problems (but there are usually a few minor issues in spite of good planning).

One final tip - be sure to PACK LIGHT!

Good luck!

[nilesh]

Hi Eagle,

I had chosen Wengen, Lucerne and Bern, since these were the most recommended places in most of the reviews I read on Internet. Isn't Wengen in Berner Oberland area? It is not very far off from Interlaken. In most of the reviews I have read, people have recommended Wengen over Interlaken. I chose Lucerne as it has lakes and Bern since it has good connectivity to Paris.
As for Overnight Train from Florence/Rome to Zurich (Get off at Spiez), I meant that I may board it from either Rome or Florence, depending on which city I visit first from Venice. However now I know it is better to travel Venice>Florence>Rome rather than Venice>Rome>Florence.

Lastly even tough my original plan may be doable on paper, I liked WillTravel's advice that I should drop some places and stay more in others. I have more or less dropped the idea of visiting Switzerland this Summer. I would only travel to Italy and France, as these were higher on my priority list. Lastly knowing the level of expenses better than before, I don't think 2 people, will be not be able to travel to all the three countries in 3500 Euros for 16 days.
Cheers,
Nilesh