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Post by sarahbec on Jan 15, 2010 17:08:19 GMT -5
Just found this site today. It's been super helpful already, though perhaps a bit overwhelming.  My sis and I are planning a trip this May and I'm wondering if our itinerary is doable or just plan crazy. We want to get in as much as possible and have already cut out many places we want to go. It's sooo hard to choose! Any input/tips would be fabulous! Day 1 - Flight to Amsterdam Arrive 7:00am train to Leiden, noon train to Haarlem and night there. Day 2 - Train to Rotterdam - windmills then to Brugge Day 3 Brugge Day 4 Brussels Day 5 fly to Geneva, Sw, train to Leysin Day 6 Train to Interlaken, Gimmelwald Day 7 Gimmelwald Day 8 Zurich, then train to Lake Como, Italy Day 9 train to Venice, night near Bologna? Day 10 Cinque Terre Day 11-12 Rome Will that be way too much time on the trains? |
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Post by madamtrashheap on Jan 16, 2010 3:20:44 GMT -5
Welcome to GFE, sarahbec.
It's great that you and your sister are planning your trip to Europe for May, and I understand that it can all be a bit overwhelming, but you have to resist the urge to try to cram too much into the time you have as you'll spend most of your time travelling and not enough of it actually enjoying the places along the way.
This is the case with your current itinerary - it is indeed too much time travelling and not enough stopping. Depending on where you're travelling from, you might like to have 2 days in your first destination, to aclimatise and not have to start travelling again straight away. If you want to see windmills, there are many scattered all over the Netherlands, so perhaps just pick one destination there and spend the time there. There are a few on the road (and just off it) between Amsterdam and Volendam (busses travel this road, but stopping might be an issue unless you drive yourself or take a tour), and around Rotterdam you could visit Schiedam as there are one or two (!) there as well (might be easier to access Schiedam for windmills).
Belgium - it's not far from Rotterdam (or Amsterdam) to Brussels and Brugge by train, so one and a half days is fine, but perhaps just spend it in Brugge rather than try to split between the two.
Rest of the itinerary is far too rushed to make it worth doing. Gimmelwald for at least 2 full days would be good, but no need to do Zurich and Geneva, Gimmelwald is far prettier. If it's just scenery you want, then the train trips are great, but again will take a good chunk of your day. For example, Gimmelwald to Zurich, then to Lake Como (I'll use the town of Tremezzo as a sample) means a 3hr train from Zurich to the city of Como (which isn't on the lake as such), then a ferry ride to Tremezzo which takes up to 1hr30mins depending on the boat, but it's worth it for the scenery.
Venice warrants at least 1 full day, and staying in a hostel near Pz Roma is a better use of your time than training it to Bologna (or nearby) to stay. That way you can explore the city at night when it's not so crowded.
The Cinque Terre need 2 full days minimum to enjoy. Rome needs a minimum of 3 full days just in the city.
So as you can see, you might need to tweak your time or destinations yet again as you'll be seeing Europe through a train window rather than on the ground. If you can advise the things you plan to see and do while you're there, or any must-see items, that will help us to suggest options.
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Post by sarahbec on Jan 16, 2010 18:53:45 GMT -5
Thank you so much! I'll share this with my sister, see what we can cut out, and post again with more details as soon as I can. I'm so excited - this is going to be a great help. We're working with a $3,000 budget per person for EVERYTHING including air flight over, which is why I'm figuring only 12 days. I want to play it safe and yet pack in as much as we can. (We're figuring hostels and b&b, mainly picnicking (but trying lots of local foods, chocolate, etc.), Swiss pass, Italy rail pass and then individual tickets for else where. ) Does that sound logical or am I being way too safe? I'm figuring $75- 100 dollars a day, not including passes and planes. |
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Post by WillTravel on Jan 17, 2010 2:38:41 GMT -5
You are unlikely to find a rail pass in Italy to be a good deal. Check prices on www.trenitalia.com , and remember that rail pass prices do not include reservations, which are compulsory on many trains. As a ballpark figure, I think that you would pay about 80-100 Euros per person in walkup fares for the Italian train travel you have listed (Zurich to Lake Como would be extra). It's quite possible the Swiss pass can be a good deal, depending on the nature of your travel. If you are on such a tight budget, figuring out the best transport deal far in advance could save you several hundred dollars, which would help a lot. Look for the national Swiss rail site, and see what individual tickets cost. I doubt the rail pass would be much help for your Netherlands/Belgium component either. Check the Dutch and Belgian rail sites for fare information. In general, many countries have cheap rail tickets on certain routes if you buy nonrefundable tickets far in advance. It's sort of the same principle as airfares. For certain routes, the price is always the same, though. For general schedule info, check www.bahn.de which provides schedules for most European countries. |
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Post by sarahbec on Jan 25, 2010 20:55:41 GMT -5
Thank you both so much for your help! I'm still trying to work out a schedule that wouldn't be too hectic. I have a bunch of questions and hope I'm not posting then in the wrong spot. Some of the highlights that we don't want to miss... Belgium/Netherlands - biking through fields of tulips, windmills, Bruge If we skip Netherlands and fly into Brussels can we see tulip fields and windmills in Belgium? Do you have any suggestions on what not to miss in the Bruge Brussels area? Switzerland - Leysin (our mom went to school there.) The Hiking Sheep hostel looks really nice! Gimmelwald and hiking around there. Cheese and chocolate. Perhaps Bern or Luzern? Which city would be better? I'm okay with skipping Zurich, but it seems most trains going to Italy go through there? What is the best way to get to either Genoa or Venice from Bern or Interlaken? That's a bit confusing to me. Italy - Cinque Terre, somewhere in Tuscany (any suggestions?) I would love to take a cooking class...Maybe find a farm stay around there? Venice, Rome, Civita di Bagnoregio, perhaps Siena and Pisa. Would Rome to Venice be a good night train trip? We are now considering mid April. It sounds like the temps will be good in Italy, but will Switzerland be covered in snow still? I don't mind some, but I would like to hike abit - even if not too high up. Thanks again for all the great information. I wish I had found this site months ago! |
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Post by madamtrashheap on Feb 2, 2010 3:32:32 GMT -5
sarahbec, just a few notes on your last Post: If it's tulips you want, then you could visit Keukenhof ( www.keukenhof.nl ), if you land before 16th May. It's a beautiful garden which is planned annually and showcases amazing garden arrangements, including a bucket-load of tulips (you'll want to roll in them, but resist the urge!). Keukenhof is near the town of Lisse, which is south-east of Amsterdam and north of Leiden, so it's on your radar. There are other gardens, displays and farms, but this is located well for your planned itinerary. The blooming time for the tulips will depend on how mild or hard Spring is this year. As for biking through (better next to the fields!) fields of tulips, you can check with the VVV (tourist information) in Amsterdam for details of tours or bike hire (bikes can be hired in most cities in the Netherlands) in different areas when you arrive there, or in Leiden when you first arrive. As I noted in my last Post, there are windmills dotted over the countryside, and you can visit the ones in Schiedam near Rotterdam. There are also tulips and windmills in Belgium, but it depends on what else you wanted to see/visit in Belgium. There are windmills ( wind molen) close to Brugge, and if the weather has been good, fields of tulips will flash past in a blur of colour on your train trips around Netherlands and Belgium. Brugge/Bruges - the town itself is stunning, so you'll find yourselves wandering and gazing for hours, which is not a bad thing. If you're into WWI, then a battlefields trip around Iper/Ypres is a must. Brussels - if you only spend an afternoon/half a day here, then perhaps concentrate on the area around the Grand'Place/Groote Markt and walk through the old town area, visit the Mannekin Pis, look for his sister Jeaneke (!), eat waffles and chocolate and make sure you sit in a cafe for mussels (moules), fries (frites) and a strong Belgian beer. There is much more to see in Brussels: chocolate museum (in the Grand'Place), beer museum (next door), Museum of Fine Art, the Horta Museum for architecture, Tin Tin Museum, Mini-Europe, the Atomium, hunt for Smurfs...and I haven't even listed the cafes! But time will be the issue, so plan your visit according to your interests. Between Bern and Luzern, it will come down to time and the direction of your itinerary. I'm a fan of both cities, so if you have time, spend a few hours in each. As you're travelling from Leysin to Gimmelwald, you could perhaps take the train from Leysin to Bern (around 2.5hrs), wander the old town and have lunch before continuing on to Gimmelwald (2hrs via Interlaken Ost). Then you could leave early on your way to Italy and stop off in Luzern for a few hours (train station is right on the lake and 5mins over the bridge from the Old Town). At this point, you need to decide if you want to stay the night and begin the journey to Italy the next day, or plan your day for a long travel day and work out where you want to be that evening. There are trains which leave from Luzern to Como (San Giovanni staion) frequently and take around 3.5hrs. As per my last Post, from there it depends on your choice of village on the Lake as to how much longer and type of travel required. If you are travelling to Lake Como from Switzerland, then there is no need to be concerned about travel to either Genoa or Venice from Bern or Interlaken. You'll need to return to Como to continue by train whichever direction you decide on next. The rest of your itinerary depends on how much time you have to travel. As I noted before, it's tempting to cram in too much in one trip and you'll see very little but Europe through a train window. CT is worth it but it still chilly in April, Siena is in Tuscany, Civita di Bagnoregio can be a day trip from Rome. Cooking classes abound in Italy, in each region, but the good ones aren't cheap, although some offer accommodation in the price. Rome to Venice by train takes only 4hrs, get on the Eurostar (Italia) fast train - no need for an overnight train. Mid-April in Switzerland can certainly still mean snow on hiking trails, even ones which seem "low". In fact, in light of this Winter, I'd suggest checking the hiking links on the regional websites (Berner Oberland for Gimmelwald) for advice. If you are now leaving in April and going until the end of May, that will give you more time, but again, I can only caution you on trying to cram too many places into your itinerary. Discuss with your sister why you've chosen some places and that will help re-jig your trip destinations.
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Post by sarahbec on Feb 5, 2010 17:44:07 GMT -5
Madamtrashheap, you are fabulous! Thanks so much for all the information. Okay, updated itinerary for your "scrutinization", please! April 14-28 Day 0 flight to Brussels Day 1-2 Bruge Day 3 Brussels Day 4 Geneva, Leysin Day 5 Lunch in Bern, Gimmelwald Day 6 Gimmelwald Day 7 Luzern, Lake Como Day 8-9 Cinque Terre, Siena on the way to Rome Day 10-11 Rome Day 12 Orvieto on the way to Venice Day 13 Flight Home Does that sound better? I would LOVE to see the Keukenhof, but I don't know how to fit it in without getting more hectic.  And I can't find anything I'd rather cut out for it. Would it be a ridiculous trip to do from Brussels?
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Post by madamtrashheap on Feb 8, 2010 0:40:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you removed the Netherlands from your itinerary when you listed many things you wanted to see there, but going with the current version, I would suggest staying in Brussels the first day you arrive, rather than getting off a plane and onto a train straight away. Travelling from Brussels to Keukenhof will involve a train from Brussels to Leiden, then the public bus directly to Keukenhof. The train takes around 2hrs, then the bus ride is about 30mins, so taking all of that into consideration, plus time spent in the gardens, it will be an all-day trip.
I also believed that you had moved your trip to April to give yourselves more time, however I see that you still have the same amount of time in which to travel, just in a different month.
Noting the time you've given to each city, you are still spending a lot of time travelling and not much sightseeing. For example, Luzern to Lake Como in one day for only one night is a waste, 2 days in Rome won't allow for extensive sightseeing (nor day trips), Siena on the way from CT to Rome will mean a lot of trian/bus changes as it's not "direct" as such, Orvieto requires the regional train (not the fast train) so you'll have to allow time for the journey and transfers up and down on the funicular from the station then the bus to the centre of Orvieto (is about 30mins one way allowing waiting time)and you're arriving in Venice on the night before your flight home, so will only have that late afternoon/evening to sightsee. I'd suggest either removing cities to give you more time in the "must-sees" of your itinerary or don't go with the idea that you'll have plenty of time to see everything. Europe looks small, but it really isn't.
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Post by sarahbec on Feb 8, 2010 11:32:08 GMT -5
No, I'm afraid we don't have more time - wish we did for sure. I know we won't have lots of time to see everything, but I think I'd rather see as much as we can as opposed to getting to know one place really well since it's unlikely that we'll be able to go back again. This is a once in a life time trip for us (unless things change)...which makes it even more difficult to plan.  I'm wondering if I can get more in for our money that I'm thinking. I've limited it to 12 days (over there) because I'm figuring 120 dollars per day for food, beds, entertainment, etc., $1,000 for flight over and and $600 for transportation there (per person). That pretty much uses what we have to spend. Does that sound reasonable to you? I only put the Lake Como stop in there to break up the train ride from Luzern to the CT since that looks like a long train ride and we didn't want to be on the train all day. Do you think it'd be better to just go straight there? We've been looking at train times on raileurope and all of them are longer than the times you have given, so I wonder if we're calculating that wrong. |
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Post by Eagle on Feb 8, 2010 14:42:10 GMT -5
sarahbec,
I have to go out for an appointment this morning, but I'll take a closer look at your post later today and try to offer some detailed suggestions.
One thing that stands out from your last post, is that Lago di Como is a considerable "detour" on the route from Luzern to the Cinque Terre. Are you really interested in visiting there?
With only 12-days, you'll need to plan VERY precisely! It would help to know where you're flying from?
I always go by the principle of "assume you will return". Hopefully you'll be able to get back to Europe at some point.
If this is your first trip to Europe, I'd highly recommend pre-reading the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door before you go. It will answer a lot of questions and make your travels easier.
More later......
Cheers!
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Post by sarahbec on Feb 8, 2010 16:18:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the response! We are flying from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Como is not a must. We thought it would break up the train travel a little bit. But I guess not. Would you recommend going from Interlaken straight to Cinque Terre? We have Europe Through The Back Door, as well as Best Of Europe 2010, and are perusing those extensively. They've been very helpful! Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated! Let me know if I can clarify anything. Thanks! |
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Post by Eagle on Feb 8, 2010 23:43:53 GMT -5
sarahbec,
If I'm reading your Itinerary plans correctly, you're considering something along these lines (suggestions and comments added):
> Day 1: Flight from OKC to BRU
> Day 2-3: Arrive in Brussels (you'll lose the first day in flight times and time zone changes, and will generally arrive the day after you departed); train to Bruge (the trip will be about 1.5 hours long, and you'll probably have to change trains at Brussels Nord).
> Day 4: Train to Brussels (the trip will be about 1H:02M if you're going from Bruges to Brussels Central - note that there are multiple stations in many towns in Europe)
> Day 5: Train to Geneva & Leysin: the shortest trip that I could find on this route was 6H:26M, with changes in Bruxelles-Midi and Lyon Part Dieu. Reservations are compulsory for two of the runs as they use the TGV, and if you buy P-P tickets these will be included in the cost of the ticket. I'm not sure about the transportation options to Leysin, but it appears the train ride will be about 1H:45M each way (if you're planning to see that as a day trip?). Hopefully MTH will have some further information on that?
> Day 6: Train to Gimmelwald: You could stop for lunch in Bern, but of course that would reduce your time in the Berner Oberland. If you choose to "skip" the lunch, there's a train departing Geneve at 09:10, arriving Interlaken Ost at 11:57 (time 2H:47M, one change in Bern, Interregio so reservations probably not required). Note that times and other rail information may be different at the time you're travelling. At Interlaken Ost you can buy the tickets for the trip to Gimmelwald. These will include all modes of transport. If you need further information on the route to Gimmelwald, post another note.
> Day 7: Train to Luzern: I found one direct train (no changes) departing Interlaken Ost ad 09:04, arriving Luzern at 11:04 (time 2H:00M).
> Day 8-9: Train to Cinque Terre: This is going to be somewhat of a longer journey. The shortest trip I could find on this route was a train departing Luzern at 07:18, arriving Monterosso at 14:19 (time 7H:01M, 4 changes at Arth-Goldau, Milano Centrale, Genova Piazza Principe and Sestri Levante, reservations compulsory for some legs. I used Monterosso as the "destination" as I wasn't sure which of the five villages you would be staying in. From there you can use the local train to your destination village).
Given the length of the trip, I think it's highly unlikely that you'll be visiting Siena on the same day. My suggestion would be to drop Siena this time, and plan to visit on a future trip. My reasoning will become apparent with the next rail trip.
> Day 10-11: Train to Rome. Take the local C.T. train to La Spezia Centrale and then use a direct train to Roma Termini. The trip is about four hours and very pleasant. If you were to stop at Siena on the way, it would detract from the VERY SHORT time you've allotted for Rome (which is not really enough to see much in such a magnificent and historic city).
> Day 12: I'm not sure there will be time to stop in Orvieto on the way to Venice? Although the trip from Rome to Orvieto is only about an hour, you'll probably be using slower regional trains from there to Venice which will take much longer. The best method for travel Rome to Venice is the EuroStar Italia / Alta Velocita which only takes 3H:48M (no changes - very quick!).
You might consider dropping Venice this time, taking a day trip to Orvieto and flying home from Roma / FCO instead. If you're intent on seeing Venice for only a day or so, skip Orvieto and head straight for Venice.
> Day 13: Flight home.
Your trip is fairly ambitious with some one-night stops, but I understand your desire to see as much as possible. I DON'T like one-night stops, so try to minimize them as much as possible. The trip is possible IMHO, although if you encounter any "strikes" in Italy, things will quickly get complicated.
Good luck with your planning!
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Post by sarahbec on Feb 9, 2010 12:08:43 GMT -5
Day 5: Train to Geneva & Leysin: the shortest trip that I could find on this route was 6H:26M, with changes in Bruxelles-Midi and Lyon Part Dieu. Reservations are compulsory for two of the runs as they use the TGV, and if you buy P-P tickets these will be included in the cost of the ticket. I'm not sure about the transportation options to Leysin, but it appears the train ride will be about 1H:45M each way (if you're planning to see that as a day trip?). Hopefully MTH will have some further information on that? We're planning on flying from Brussels to Geneva using easyjet - tickets 25euro. We will be staying in Leysin one night. From what I understand we have to go back to Lausanne to get to Bern or Interlaken. Correct me if I'm wrong please! I know this seems like a bizarre stop in such a packed schedule, but my mom went to school there and we'd like to look around. Day 8-9: Train to Cinque Terre: This is going to be somewhat of a longer journey. The shortest trip I could find on this route was a train departing Luzern at 07:18, arriving Monterosso at 14:19 (time 7H:01M, 4 changes at Arth-Goldau, Milano Centrale, Genova Piazza Principe and Sestri Levante, reservations compulsory for some legs. I used Monterosso as the "destination" as I wasn't sure which of the five villages you would be staying in. From there you can use the local train to your destination village). If we skipped Luzern, but wanted to break up the train trip from Interlaken to CT, what would be the best place to stay the night? (I'm not really interested in Milan. ) Or is that a bad idea? There would be too many transfers to make it a night train, right? Day 12: I'm not sure there will be time to stop in Orvieto on the way to Venice? Although the trip from Rome to Orvieto is only about an hour, you'll probably be using slower regional trains from there to Venice which will take much longer. The best method for travel Rome to Venice is the EuroStar Italia / Alta Velocita which only takes 3H:48M (no changes - very quick!). You might consider dropping Venice this time, taking a day trip to Orvieto and flying home from Roma / FCO instead. If you're intent on seeing Venice for only a day or so, skip Orvieto and head straight for Venice. We would really like to see Civita di Bagnoregio, which is why Orvieto is in there (I should have specified that) , but what you are saying makes lots of sense. My sister is set on Venice, so I'll have to talk to her about this. We're hoping to get a late flight out of Venice, but I'm finding that booking one between 5 and 11 pm only makes for a 13-14 hour layover in Zurich. Ugh! It'd be one thing if it was during the day... Thanks so much for your help and the time you spent on this! |
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Post by Eagle on Feb 9, 2010 16:10:43 GMT -5
sarahbec,
I have a few more comments regarding your last post.
That will a more "direct" method than by train, but I'm not really sure it will save you much time? You'll have to allow for travel to and from each airport, check-in, security, waiting for flights, boarding and getting off the planes, etc. I suspect you'll need 4-6 hours even travelling by air. Add to that about 1.5 hours from Geneva Airport to Leysin. There are a number of stations listed for rail stations in Leysin, and I don't have any information on which one is most appropriate for you. Hopefully someone else here can answer that question (calling MTH!).
No, I don't believe that will be necessary. The route I'd probably use from Leysin to Interlaken Ost is a train departing Leysin Village (I'm assuming that's the correct station?) at 08:04, arriving Interlaken Ost at 10:57 (time 2H:53M, 3 changes in Aigle, Visp and Spiez). From Interlaken Ost you can travel to Gimmelwald (again, please indicate if you need information on the transportation from Interlaken to Gimmelwald).
With only a 12-day trip, I'd suggest pressing on to your next destination even though it does involve a long day on the train. That extra night spent at an intermediate destination will reduce the time you have in other places.
The route I'd probably choose in the same circumstances would be a train departing Interlaken Ost at 08:01, arriving Monterosso at 15:02 (time 7H:01M, 3 changes at Spiez, Brig and Milano Centrale, reservations compulsory for two of the segments). Although you're "not really interested" in Milan, keep in mind that you're just passing through and not stopping. I'm not a big fan of night trains, as if they have multiple changes you won't get much sleep. Also, renting a Couchette will cost as much or perhaps more than a Hostel.
I'm really glad you mentioned that! IMHO it will be virtually impossible to visit <i>Civita di Bagnoregio</i> "on the way to Venice". Consider this scenario - when you arrive in Orvieto (hauling luggage), you'll have to take the Funicular from the station up to the main Piazza. From there find the nearest Tabachi and buy your tickets for the blue <i>Cotral</i> Bus (there will likely be a few parked in the Piazza). Then you'll have to find the correct Bus for the trip to Bagnoregio (there are a limited number of Buses on that route every day and keep in mind that you'll have to plan the return trip to Orvieto also - don't forget to validate your ticket!). The trip to Bagnoregio will take about an hour.
When you arrive in Bagnoregio, you'll have to buy a ticket for the small Shuttle Bus that will take you to the base of the bridge at Civita (€1 each way, as I recall). The Shuttle trip will take about 10-15 minutes, and the walk across the bridge and into Civita another 10 minutes (no cars on the small bridge, but watch for motorcycles). After your visit when you get back to the pickup point for the Shuttle, you may find that the driver is on his afternoon "siesta" for an hour or more (I found that out "the hard way" and got soaked in a rainstorm waiting for the Shuttle to return - I finally got a ride back to Orvieto, but that's another story). After return to Bagnoregio and Orvieto (another hour or more), you'd still have to carry on to Venice.
For that particular trip, I'd suggest staying in Orvieto at least two nights and allow the better part of a full travel day for the visit to Civita di Bagnoregio. You could also take an hour or so and have a look around Bagnoregio.
Hope this helps.
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Post by sarahbec on Feb 10, 2010 15:36:23 GMT -5
Thank you Eagle! You all have been so helpful on here! I'm having a terrible time deciding what to cut out. Would Pisa be an easy stop going from Manarola (the town we're staying at) to Rome? I would like to see one of the towns of Tuscany if possible... We're talking over a day trip from Rome to see Civita...or possibly staying the night in Orvieto and heading on to Venice the next day? Do you know off hand how much longer it would take to get to Venice from there rather than Rome? As far as the trains go, I'm a bit confused. Can I just walk right up to the station and by any of my tickets for where ever I want to go right before I need them, or do I need to buy them before hand? For example, rail into Rome on the 23rd and buy tickets for Venice for the 26th before leaving the station. Also about the Swiss pass - do you think our itinerary would benefit from the 3day pass (216euro), or would it be better to buy point-to-point tickets there as well? As much as I price ticket and try to figure this out, I'm still baffled by it. 50% discount on cog rails sounds like it would add up fast and I'm not sure how much we'll have to use those. |
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And I can't find anything I'd rather cut out for it. Would it be a ridiculous trip to do from Brussels?
