First trip to Europe

[revyd]

My wife and I are planning our first trip to Europe for this year between the middle of May and the middle of June. Dates are still pretty fluid and so are the destinations.

We will be flying from the Westcoast of Canada... watching the Olympics in my backyard right now. We would like to go to Spain, France and Italy for sure but open to any other suggestions.

So specifically we are looking for ideas/suggestions for the best city to fly into and the best to fly out of. I'm planning on booking award travel with British Airways. (transferred from RBC Avion)
Are there some "must see" places that we should plan for?
Budget wise we will have about $4500 CDN to travel with after the flight there. Can we do it on that?
and of course any other thoughts you might have. ;D Thanks in advance

[WillTravel]

I would suggest something like fly into Rome and out of Paris (this suggestion because Paris in June is likely not as hot as Rome), but of course it depends on what cities you end up choosing.

$4500 CAD is about 3000 Euros. I'd expect to spend 150-200 Euros per day as a couple, not including planes and trains. If you spend more time in Spain, and less in France and Italy, then your budget can likely be less. (Speaking generally, because you might be able to get some great deals anywhere.) It also depends how much luxury you want.

I'd say your budget is more like a 2-week trip than a month, but if you are careful about expenses and plan your destinations accordingly, you can stretch it out. I wouldn't get a rail pass (essentially useless for Spain and Italy at the best of times, anyway), and I would plan ahead to get the cheapest rail rates.

Rather than "must-sees", what do you feel are your top priorities?

Hello from a fellow Vancouverite! The poster Eagle is from the Okanagan.

[revyd]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Probably wasn't quite accurate to say the Olympics were in my backyard literally. Maybe on the global scale. I'm from Revelstoke/Kelowna

I had been thinking more along the lines of 100 Euro per day but maybe that was too optimistic. For accommodation we're planning a combination of couchsurfing, hostels and we have maybe a week and a half of timeshare we could use.

I had discovered that a rail pass didn't look like the best way to go. I found a site that seems to work out rail tickets in the most efficient way for a newbie. www.railsaver.com It's probably just a good starting place though. I also found www.seat61.com/index.html which seems pretty informative as well.

I think our top priorities are: first to say we've done it ;D. Then we are looking for the cultural experience which is why we want to do the couchsurfing thing. Love meeting new people. Then I think we probably want to see some of the traditional sites like Eiffel tower even though we don't care about going up to the top of it. Other things like the Louvre, the catacombs and the Pantheon are also appealing. Hope that makes sense.

Dave

[herrbert]

With having Roma and Paris already on the list, and a desire to get to Spain, I think that flights are the way to go. There are many flights, that if you book them ahead, are really cheap. If you want the cultural thing, you can think about Granada (Alhambra), Barcelona (Gaudo/Dali) and even Madrid, with the three major museums. With some checking it shouldn't be too hard to find transportation between these cities.

[revyd]

Here's our itinerary so far with some budgeting figures too. Any suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated. The dates may shift a few days either way depending on the flights we book.

(May 2) Rome 4 days
highspeed train to (4 hours) 102€
(May 6)Venice 3 days
train to (3.5 hours) 42€
(May 9)Milan 3 days
EasyJet flight 75.98€
(May 12)Barcelona 4 days
train to (3.5 hours) 228€
(May 16)Madrid 3 days
day train to (9 hours) 164.60€
(May 19)Bordeaux 3 days
train to (4.5 hours) 79.80€
(May 22)Paris 4 days
train to (2 hours) 46€
(May 26)Caen 2 days
overnight ferry to (8 hours)
(May 28)Portsmouth
bus to
London 3 days
(June 1) return

[Eagle]

revyd,

Welcome to the Boards! I have a few additional comments.....

As this is your first trip to Europe, my first suggestion is to pre-read the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door. It will provide a lot of good information on things like budgeting, Hotels, language issues, money and especially rail skills.

Your budget of Cdn$4500 is probably going to be a bit "limited" for a trip of a month, but I suppose it might be possible? I'll have to give that some thought.

Your plan to use "open jaw" flights is good, as you won't have to return to your starting point. One thing to keep in mind is that you'll lose the first day in flight times and time zone changes, so you'll arrive the day after you departed (on the return trip, you'll normally arrive home the same day you departed).

Regarding your destinations, I'd probably drop Milan and substitute another spot in that area, perhaps the Cinque Terre? If you want to leave Milan at three days, you might consider at least a day trip to Lago di Como (Varenna / Bellagio), Stresa or Verona. All are easily done from Milan.

Railsaver is not the best site for planning rail trips, as it's a private site and it will provide a good idea on Railpasses but not as much with P-P tickets. You might try the www.bahn.de website instead (click on the English link).

I'd also suggest having a look at some country or city-specific Guidebooks to get some idea of sights you'll want to see in each place. Plan your touring carefully so that you don't waste any time!

Regarding Paris, you might consider a Paris Museum Pass, perhaps the two day version. It will help to minimize queue's at popular attractions. The Eiffel Tower is NOT included in the pass, so you'll have to stand in line. Try to pick the time of day, as the queues are shorter at some times. Note that if you want to go to the top level of the Tower, there's an extra charge.

If you're planning to visit the Louvre, don't try to see it all as it's huge! The Mona Lisa is in the Denon wing, while Venus di Milo is in the Sully wing. The Musee d'Orsay has a great collection of Impressionist Art and is located in an elegant old train station.

If you find a copy of the Guidebook mentioned above, pay particular attention to the section on "Scams". Wear a Money Belt under your clothes, and be vigilant when in crowds (on the Metro or whatever).

I'll have a closer look at your transportation links tomorrow or the next day, when I have more time.

Cheers!

[herrbert]

A daytrain from Barcelona to Madrid for 228 euros. on the AVE (takes less than 3 hours), you would pay around 100 euro for the most expensive ticket. If you have only a ticket of 228, you might opt for a flight instead, it will take a bit longer, with going to the airport, baggage claim etc, but done for around 50 euros.

On www.renfe.es you can book ahead two months in front. (62 days to be precise) and when you can pick up a web ticket (the cheapest ticket), you should get here cheaper.

3 days in Milan seems a lot, if I believe most of the people who have been there. No comment on Bordeaux, but it wouldn't be my first choice. (winelovers maybe?)

[madamtrashheap]

Feb 22, 2010 3:56:10 GMT -5 Eagle said:

The Musee d'Orsay has a great collection of Impressionist Art and is located in an elegant old train station.

Just a quick note on the Musee d'Orsay: it is undergoing renovations until March 2011 which means some sections are closed and some of the pieces usually held there are on a bit of a world tour at the moment, so if there are specific pieces you'd like to see, check their website for details ( www.musee-orsay.fr ). If there's nothing specific, but you still want to experience an impressive museum, then go for it, it's worth the visit.

On your intinerary, just a few additional points to those added by the others:

Venice - 3 nights here will give you 2 full days, plus the afternoon of your arrival, so you may want to investigate a day trip out to Burano (can be done by public boat) and even a trip over to Lido de Jessolo if you feel like a bit of beach culture Venetian style. You could also do a day trip to Padova, Trieste or even Porec (in Croatia, by hovercraft) if you feel you have the time.

Milan - would you consider spending less time here for a night or two at Lake Como? It's just up the road a little and you don't have to stay at Bellagio to enjoy it, thus can find affordable accommodation nearby (Lenno, Tremezzo). Make sure you book as far in advance as possible if you plan to see The Last Supper. www.cenacolovinciano.it/html/eng/smgrazie.htm is the site to book tickets.

Barcelona and Madrid - depending on your plans, you might want to swap the number of days currently allocated in each city. That is, have 3 in Barca and 4 in Madrid. This will still allow for time in each city, as well as any day trips like Figueres from Barcelona or Segovia or Toledo from Madrid.

Bordeaux - if you are wine enthusiasts then 3 days here will be good (check into hiring a car or look at tours as the cellar doors of Domaine are a long way out of town), if you're just using it as a stop to break up the train to Paris, then perhaps consider flying to Paris from Madrid (fly into Orly or Charles de Gaulle airports rather than Beauvais) instead.

Portsmith to London - whilst the bus (National Express) may be cheaper, check train ticket prices as this could be a long journey on top of the overnight ferry (where you might only get a few hours sleep taking into account boarding and disembarking time) as traffic on that stretch can get busy as you close in on London. www.nationalrail.co.uk If you're not too concerned (ie it's a Thursday and the bus leaves before lunch) then bus is fine, just check where your journey ends in order to work out how best to get to your accommodation that night.

[revyd]

Wow! Sure appreciate all of the suggestions so far. I'll be taking them all into consideration as I fine-tune the trip.

We have booked our tickets so that gives us some outside parameters on the trip.

leave Calgary (May 2)
(May 3 arrive at 19:30) Rome 4 days
train to (7 hours) 75€
(May 7)Venice 3 days
train to (3.5 hours) 42€
(May 10)Milan 3 days
EasyJet flight 75.98€
(May 13)Barcelona 4 days
train to (3.5 hours) 228€ AVE or (9 hours) 85.60€ Estrella or (8 hours) 53.36€ by Bus
(May 16)Madrid 3 days
day train to (9 hours) 164.60€
(May 20)Bordeaux 3 days
train to (4.5 hours) 79.80€
(May 23)Paris 4 days
train to (2 hours) 46€
(May 27)Caen 2 days
overnight ferry to (8 hours)
(May 29)Portsmouth
bus to
London 3 days
(June 1) return

So those are the broad parameters based on the currently booked flights.

The venice suggestions look great. We'll look more at that and probably have more questions.

We will look at what to do in Milan although our main reason to stop there was to visit with one of our son's friends. Lake Como does sound interesting though.

madamtrashheap, you suggest maybe staying 4 days in Madrid and only 3 in Barcelona. Why? Actually with the travel between the two we would probably end up with about 3 days in each. I switched it on the itinerary already.

We are going to Bordeaux for the wine so we'll definitely be doing more research on tours and such.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. As I've said (I think) the itinerary is really pretty soft right now, we just needed to get our flights booked. I'll be fine-tuning it over the next few weeks so bring on the ideas.

[Eagle]

revyd,

I have a few more comments on your proposed Itinerary and especially the rail trips.

> May 6 - Roma Termini to Venezia Santa Lucia: As you noted, the EuroStar Italia / Alta Velocita is the best option. There are numerous trains on that route every day. For example, a train departing Rome at 09:45, arriving Venice at 13:33 (time 3H:48M, reservations compulsory, 2nd Class fare listed at €73).

NOTE: Fares I'm quoting are of course subject to change.

> May 9 - Venezia Santa Lucia to Milano Centrale: This is an easy trip. For example, an ES City train departing Venice at 09:50, arriving Milan at 12:25 (time 2H:27M, reservations compulsory, 2nd Class fare listed at €30.50)

If you're planning on taking any day trips from Milan (ie: Lago di Como) and need information, post another note.

> Milan to Barcelona - EasyJet is a good option. If you need information on getting from Milan to the Airport, post another note.

> Travel in Spain - herrbert is the best qualified to answer those questions, so I won't comment on those.

> Madrid to Bordeaux - where did you obtain the times that you listed? This appears to be a considerably longer trip than 9 hours. You might be better to fly from Milan to Madrid, then train to Barcelona. The trip from there to Bordeaux is about 10 hours or so.

> Bordeaux to Paris - the shortest trip I could find on this route was 3H:40M via TGV (no stops). It arrives at Gare Montparnasse. From there it's easy to get anywhere on the Metro.

> Paris to Caen - could you clarify why you chose Caen? Is there a specific site that you want to see in that area? In any case, you'll be departing from Gare Saint-Lazare, which you can also reach by Metro (it's a bit of a walk from the Metro stop there up to the rail station, but not difficult at all).

>Caen to London - taking the Ferry and then Bus to London is certainly one option, but not the quickest method. You'll need to travel to Le Havre to board the Ferry. Another method would be to return to Paris by train (1H:48M) and then take the EuroStar to London St. Pancras (about 2H:15M). With this method, you'd also need to add a bit of time to get from Gare Saint-Lazare to Gare du Nord via Metro (I'd allow at least an hour).

Your Itinerary was a bit hard to follow, so hopefully I've understood your intentions.

Happy travels!

[revyd]

Eagle,

Madrid to Bordeaux - just double checked the times and realized that was time on the train only. Did not include the two hour layover in Hendaye. Total trip is 10.5 hours.
Caen - I really want to visit the site of the D-Day landings particularly Juno Beach. I have relatives and friend's fathers who fought there.
Caen to London - www.directferries.co.uk lists a ferry from Caen as well as one from Le Havre.

Hopefully that clarifies some things. The itinerary is as I've mentioned really vague and nothing is set in concrete as of yet. Other than a few things like Caen and Milan that we are set on, the rest of the itinerary can certainly and will certainly be adjusted based on experienced traveller's insight like yourself. Thanks so much for the comments.

[Eagle]

revyd,

The D-Day beaches cover quite a distance, and there are few transportation options to get to them. One alternative you might consider would be to stay in Bayeux rather than Caen, and take the www.battlebus.fr/Canadian_Juno_Tour.html with Battlebus. They're a bit expensive but these tours are incredible and you'll learn far more about the Canadian experience than if you travelled on your own. The Guides are outstanding and very passionate about relating the history. Standing in the gardens at Abbaye d'Ardenne was very moving (and a bit sombre, considering what happened there). The tour also stops at the main Canadian cemetery at Beny sur Mer, which is also very moving (especially when reading the ages of many who resting there) and Juno Beach Centre.

The www.battlebus.fr/American_Highlights_Tour.html is also excellent, and covers some of the sites made famous in movies such as Saving Private Ryan and The Longest Day. If you have time for only one tour, the Canadian tour is a good choice.

Battlebus requires tour members to stay in Bayeux the night prior to the tour, as they leave at 08:00 precisely (no exceptions). There's also a good WW-II Museum in Bayeux (British, as I recall) and of course the famous Bayeux Tapestry which describes a much earlier battle in 1066. If you're planning to take one of their tours, pre-booking would be HIGHLY advisable as they're very popular.

Cheers!

[revyd]

Eagle,

My main interest in the D-Day beaches is Juno beach and the path that Canadian soldiers took to then free Caen. We may end up renting bikes if we can or a motorcycle. I suppose we could walk too.

I think that we will want to visit the Juno Beach Centre in Courseulles-sur-Mer. It may work out that we will just make a day trip from Paris then take the Eurostar to London. Still researching.

[revyd]

Eagle,

I think you can tell at this point that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about in regards to distances in Normandy.

The BattleBus tour looks great. As you pointed out it is a bit expensive but probably worth it. We'll need to review the budget to see what we can and can't do. Unfortunately Normandy is right at the end of our trip so if we have gone over budget at all, we'll be in trouble.

So based on further research spurned on by your great suggestions, I would say we have a couple of options. We can stay overnight in Bayeaux and do the Battlebus Canadian tour or we could take a day trip from Paris to Caen, bus to Courseulles-sur-Mer and the Juno Beach. Probably the Battlebus tour will be more extensive but the self-guided tour will probably be less expensive. Does that sound about right?

[herrbert]

I think that this might be a useful website, about the D-Day sights, and other WWII sites as well.

battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/d_day_sites.htm