How about this for a 9 week European Itinery?

[cher1e]

Hello everyone

Even though I'm not planning to travel til April next year, I figured that in bordem, theres nothing wrong with creating an basic itinery - cos I know from experience, the more time that goes by, the less I will feel like doing it! Any ideas, tips, or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.
Also, I have been to Europe before on exchange. Went all over Belgium, Paris, France, Barcelona and areas, Amsterdam and some Germany. I have a tiny understanding!

Ok, well the idea is 9-10 weeks and then work in London/UK for a few months, with travelling while living there..

Fly (from Melbourne, Australia) to Paris...
Paris: 4 days - daytripping to Versailles etc.
South France - Provence? any ideas where exactly? : 3 days
Normandy - friend has a castle in the area : 3 days
Belgium - where I did my student exchange : 2-3 days
Berlin: 4 days
Rhine Valley: 2 days
Munich: 3 days
Switzerland (not sure where --read guide books but it all looks so beautiful!) : 4 days
Austria (was never a place I really cared about visiting, should I see it anyway? well the capital?) - Vienna: 2 days
Slovenia (once again not entirely sure WHERE- probably Ljubljana and Izola area) : 5 days
Croatia (Zagreb and Dubrovnik): 7 days
Hungary (again I was never keen, except that the Hungarians whom I work with tell me I should go there...not ecstatic because my brother had a terrible time there)- Budapest : 2 days
Romania (Brasov, Bucarest) - for some reason I've always wanted to see this place!: 4 days
Turkey (at first this was about a stop over but the more I read about it, the more I like...) Istanbul and Antalya I think it was..: 3/4 days
Greece -Athens and Dodecanese islands: 5 days
Italy: (in no order) Venice: 1 day, Rome: 4 days, Milan: 2 days, Florence: 2 days, Tuscany area somewhere?: 2 days....
THEN fly to London, for a day or two before working...

Is that too ambitious? Like I said, not all places were high on the list so should I cut them? I was planning on buying a 2 month Eurorail Youth Pass... Also, does it seem like I am backtracking? I was planning on taking the ferry in a couple of places for something different...?
I decided to budget around 60E per day although many places I read about say that more than enough - I guess it gives me help in the expensive countries to experience them a bit more!

Thanks alot - any ideas/suggestions would be great!

[madamtrashheap]

Cher1e, welcome! and you can never start your planning too early - guarantee you'll change your plans 17 times before you leave! ;D

I've added a few comments below in red for you to ponder

cher1e said:

Fly (from Melbourne, Australia) to Paris...
Paris: 4 days - daytripping to Versailles etc. 4 days is a minimum, esp if you're going to spend 1 or 2 on day trips to Versailles and Giverny (Monet's Garden)
South France - Provence? any ideas where exactly? : 3 days
try Aix en Provence, Nice and/or Antibes adn perhaps a day in Lyon on your way from Paris to the RivieraNormandy - friend has a castle in the area : 3 days lucky you! can the GFE crew come too?!
Belgium - where I did my student exchange : 2-3 days I'm jealous - I love Belgium!Berlin: 4 days
Rhine Valley: 2 days where speficially? Heidelberg? Koblenz or a small town on the river?
Munich: 3 days
Switzerland (not sure where --read guide books but it all looks so beautiful!) : 4 days Luzern, Gimmelwald, Lauterbrunnen, Chamonix...just not Zurich!
Austria (was never a place I really cared about visiting, should I see it anyway? well the capital?) - Vienna: 2 days OMG you should go! V pretty, esp the Tirol region (Innsbruck, Salzburg) and Vienna is a pretty gorgeous capital city too, take your pick as Vienna is a good way to reach Eastern Europe.
Slovenia (once again not entirely sure WHERE- probably Ljubljana and Izola area) : 5 days Lubljana is prety, haven't been anywhere else
Croatia (Zagreb and Dubrovnik): 7 days
Hungary (again I was never keen, except that the Hungarians whom I work with tell me I should go there...not ecstatic because my brother had a terrible time there)- Budapest : 2 days Give Budapest a go, but yep only for 2 nights.Romania (Brasov, Bucarest) - for some reason I've always wanted to see this place!: 4 days Romania is a hidden treasure - these are two of the "must-see" cities, but you could also go to Cluj if you wanted to do the whole Vlad the Impailer (aka Count Dracula) thing, but remember, Dracular is a story, Vlad was real!Brasov is great for cheap winter skiing too, btw
Turkey (at first this was about a stop over but the more I read about it, the more I like...) Istanbul and Antalya I think it was..: 3/4 days Istanbul is one of my favourite cities, so 2 days would be good. Don't forget the travel time needed in Turkey.
Greece -Athens and Dodecanese islands: 5 days Athens 2 days (3 nights) will be enough to see the main things and soak in a little history. what island specifically?
Italy: (in no order) Venice: 1 day (at least 1 full day, if not 2), Rome: 4 days (minimum!), Milan: 2 days (plenty), Florence: 2 days (you'll need probably 3 to fully enjoy this city, but I AM biased!), Tuscany area somewhere?: 2 days.... where did you have in mind - a little village? Try San Gimignano, Montalcino or Sienna
THEN fly to London, for a day or two before working...

Phew! You're off to a good start though. Here's one more for you, Berlin, at least 2 full days - happy planning! ;D

[cher1e]

Thanks alot for that! Especially the suggestions!
I was thinking Luzern in Switzerland, and funnily enough Zurich - pretty much because it was a familiar name!
Also, do you think that the budgets alright since i will be visiting several expensive cities? So is 4 days in Berlin too long? And I have been reading other posts about Venice... should I give it a miss all together? I guess I always loved the whole Venetian mask thing - thanks to my brother!

Its crazy... 11 months away and I feel so excited about it!

[me]

one minor detail. Cote d'Azure & Normandy are opposite directions. it might be better to leave Aix, et al, to later, crossing from Italy. Florence & Cinque Terra aren't so far from France's blue coast.

Paris -> Normandy -> Belgium. . . might be a better way to go.

BTW, it's never too early to start planning. just don't put any money down until you're sure of the travel plan.

- d

cher1e said:

Paris: 4 days - daytripping to Versailles etc.
South France - Provence? any ideas where exactly? : 3 days
Normandy - friend has a castle in the area : 3 days
Belgium - where I did my student exchange : 2-3 days

[cher1e]

Thanks, I guess I didn't think about that too much... I think I was just thinking about one country at a time, but thats a good observation, thanks.
I was hoping that I could get a ferry across, to say Venice, from Greece, (however I hear its expensive...) and then I was going to head south and then fly out from Rome... any suggestions on how I should change it?

[madamtrashheap]

Hmm, directions, directions! David's suggestion of of Paris - Normandy-Belgium is a v good start (can't miss that castle!) and then you could go ot Rhein/Rhine Valley, Berlin, Munich, Switzerland, then south west to the French Riviera before heading around the Med to Cinque Terre then Florence and other towns in that region. Then you could go up to Austria (start in the Tirol/Tyrol) before venturing further east and through the countries/cities you've listed, then end up in Venice before sailing down the Adriatic to Greece and then end in Rome, as you've stated you're thinking of doing. Take your pick of ports - Corfu, Igoumenitsa, Patras, Pireaus/Athens. There's an overnight ferry Venice to Corfu that takes around 24hrs) and a 2 night ferry to Patras with connections to Pireaus). You don't have to book a room on the boats, in Summer many travellers just camp out on the decks (there's covering) on the overnight ferry. But you're travelling in April/May so it might still be a little chilly to do that. There are a few ferry companies that sail up and down the Adriatic, have a look at www.ferries.gr/ or www.greekferries.gr/ if you haven't already, as companies such as Minoan or Anek Lines will have what you're looking for.

Pull that map out again and come up with a route or two (or 7!) and that will help you identify where you want to end and fly back to London from. You could even travel from Turkey by boat/ferry across the Aegean Sea to Greece - there's another route to consider!

Happy planning! ;D

[logan]

as well depending on your rail pass, the ferry from Greece to Venice is good for deck travel. Then you can pay a little extra for a cabin. It's under the bonus' section on the rail passes

Same with the K-D ferry down the Rhine if your looking at a ferry ride of the Rhine while there. It's part of the bonus' on the rail pass

[me]

as a variation on Madam's plan, see what you want to see in Italy, then North into Tyrol & lower Austria heading back to Salzburg, flying directly from Salzburg to Kos, in Dodecanese islands <€138 + €44 = €182>. a 3½ hour flight sounds much better to me than several days on various ferries!

madamtrashheap said:

Then you could go up to Austria (start in the Tirol/Tyrol) before venturing further east and through the countries/cities you've listed, then end up in Venice before sailing down the Adriatic to Greece

[cher1e]

Thanks for the suggestions...
I looked at a map again and it made alot more sence this time! I've got my mum's sence of direction which unfortunatley isn't too good!
So changing my route... I thought I could start in Rome

Rome
-
Florence
-
Sienna
-
Milan
-
Marseilles and Aix en Provence
-
Paris
-
Normandy
-
Belgium
-
Rhine (From Cologne?)
-
Berlin
-
Munich
-
Salzburg
-
Interlaken
-
Lucerne
-
Venice
-
Ljubljana
-
Izola area? (not sure where)
-
Budapest
-
Brasov
-
Bucarest
-
Istanbul
-
Turkish coast?

You could even travel from Turkey by boat/ferry across the Aegean Sea to Greece - there's another route to consider!

Greek island [insert name] -- not 100% where yet...
-
Athens
-
UK

So please tell me what you think of this new itinery!
Oh and I really like the idea of going on a ferry trip while in the Rhine valley.. I looked into the bonuses and there are quite a few goodies to pick up around the place... Lol... I just realised I had already been on part of the Rhine as when I was on exchange I visited Cologne and the area but never the less I want to return and explore at my own pace!

[madamtrashheap]

me said:

flying directly from Salzburg to Kos, in Dodecanese islands <€138 + €44 = €182>. a 3½ hour flight sounds much better to me than several days on various ferries!

I'm liking the flying suggestion, David! Although methinks you don't like to sail?! Logan's suggestion is interesting - didn't know about the discount - thanks! And I'm liking the look of the reversed itinerary too cher1e - nice one! Cologne (Koeln) is probably the best place in the Rhein region as far as things to see/do, and as you've been there already you know what you're looking for. Cruises up/down the Rhein vary in length and leave from different points, so if you like the sound of it, you could do a night or two on the river, although the boats are nothing like the "Love Boat" with Capt Stubing (am I showing my age/era?!! )!

Oh, don't forget the night trains for some of those journeys. Get on the RailEurope website and have a play with dates/times to give yourself an idea of the journey time. You could even investigate the flying thing for other cities too, depending on the rail pass you're looking at and time required in each place.

Keep playing with the route, as long as you keep the distances in mind you'll come up with the perfect plan for your trip! ;D

[me]

i had a catamaran for a while when i was a college student in a city near Lake Texoma <a 140 mile² ~ 360 km² reservoir on Texas-Oklahoma border>! it's just that vacation time is valuable time, and riding ferries from Venice to Dodecanese Islands would take several days. i also suspect those ferry rides would cost substantially more than a €182 flight would cost. the ferry might be nice for a while, but we're talking days, literally days, on boats!

madamtrashheap said:

I'm liking the flying suggestion, David! Although methinks you don't like to sail?!

[Eagle]

cher1e, I just had a look at your "revised itinerary" and wondered if this was the order you were planning to visit the various cities? I have a few comments and hopefully some of the others will have a few as well.

- Rome: good starting point
- Florence
- Siena? this involves "backtracking" from Florence. Why not visit this before Florence?
- Milan: is there a particular reason you want to visit Milan. Most seem to feel that it's only worth a brief stop. Leaving this out might free up some travel time or give you some flexibility in other locations?
- Marseilles and Aix en Provence: again, is there a reason for this stop? Although I haven't been there, I haven't heard a lot of positive comments on Marseille. I'm wondering if Arles and Avignon might be a better choice? (comments anyone?)
- Paris: good!
- Normandy: which city were you going to use as a "home base" in Normandy. If you're planning on visiting the beaches, Bayeux is a good choice. The beaches are too far to walk, but there are tours available.
- Belgium: which cities were you going to visit? There seems to be differing opinions on the Boards here, regarding whether Brussels or Brugges is a more worthwhile stop.
- Rhine (From Cologne?): looks good
- Berlin:
- Munich: on your trip from Berlin to Munich, you might find it interesting to arrange your travel route so that you travel via the "Romantic Road". Rothenburg ob der Tauber is a favourite stop!
- Salzburg: it might be more efficient to head to Switzerland, and include Salzburg on your way to Ljubljana?
- Interlaken: were you planning to stay just in Interlaken, or check out Gimmelwald (a favourite on this Board!)?
- Lucerne:
- Venice: Again, I'm wondering whether Munich-Switzerland-Venice-Salzburg-Ljubljana might be a better route? (comments anyone?).
- Ljubljana:
- Izola area? (not sure where): Would it be more efficient to travel here directly from Venice, and then visit Ljubljana, then Salzburg on the way to Budapest? Again, it would save some "backtracking".
- Budapest:
- Brasov:
- Bucharest: I'm assuming you'll use a budget flight from here to Istanbul? Be sure to check to find out the costs and schedules for this.
- Istanbul:
- Turkish coast: One question I have with your choice of a "last destination" is where you'll be flying home from??? I suspect flights from the Turkish coast are a bit "limited". When flying "open jaw" it's usually best to end one's journey in a location that has a major airport, as it's easier to find flights at the "right price".

I always try to pick a logical and efficient route, both for cost and time savings. Nine-Ten weeks is not a long time, so you don't want to wear yourself out with excessive travelling. Don't try to cover everything on one trip.

Good luck with your planning! I'm sure the helpful group here can help you get this sorted.

Cheers!!!

[me]

some more suggestions, Eagle caught most of the stuff i'd suggest.

if you drop Milan & visit Sienna between Rome & Florence, you could go West from Florence, via Pisa, then North to a nice natural park area with 5 villages known as Cinque Terra (CT). CT is a popular place with travelers.

skipping ahead, from Belgium, don't know how long of Rhein trip you'd want, but a boat ride ending in Cologne (from Bonn or Koblenz) might be better than one starting there. you could take a night train from Cologne to Berlin. <22.30 - 05.19, if you ride all the way out to Lichtenberg, 22.30 - 04.53 if you get off at Berlin main station>

also, Prague is an interesting city somewhat between Berlin & Munich.

Innsbruck is a beautiful city in the Austrian alps that would give you some exposure to the mountains without the very high costs associated with Switzerland.

most definitely, from Venice, the Istrian peninsula is much closer than Ljubljana! it's backtracking to go to Ljubljana before "Izola area."

from Budapest, i went to Szeged which was a nice town. there's no hostel, but one can get a room in the dorm at a school on the ring road outside downtown for a good price. i spent the 1st night at a hotel, with two other travelers i'd met in Budapest. the Aussie found out about the school letting out rooms from expats at the town's British Pub.

can't really tell you anything about the rest of your plans. i haven't been further Southeast than Szeged.

- d

[cher1e]

Thanks once again for the suggestions...

I was planning on taking the night trains when possible so a.) To save money on hostels and b.) Save precious time visiting new cities... and I don't really mind European train travel... except for losing my digital camera on some train... but thats a different story!

In some places I will definately try to fly-- like Bucarest to Istanbul - thats 18 hours by train! And possibly even Budapest to Bucarest... are there any other places you think its best to fly?

Thanks Eagle... for a couple of the places like Florence and Sienna, I really had no idea - same with Slovenia... I will make changes accordingly!. My brother got married in Milan and I guess for no real reason (besides having In-law family in Lake Como - incredibly expensive) I thought it would be interesting to see... Just reading about CT, it does look incredible... thanks for the tip, still not sure... maybe I can run a poll (im a bit stubborn to convince but im sure that would do it )

With Marseille, I pretty much said it because I have been there.... I think I meant Southern France... just unclear which part was the best!

Normandy: Family friends castle - not exactly sure where yet *reminder to self: send them an email!*...
Belgium: Braine Le Comte to be exact it was where I spent a semester on exchange and I basically just want to meet up with my friends and family, I have already seen most of Belgium...
Rhine: What if I began in Cologne, went to Bonn, stayed for a day or two, then went down back to Cologne, or is that too much?
I have no real desire to go to Prague, I heard its just like other countries I will be visiting...

Ok now I'm really confused about what to do about the Salsburg Insbruk (yes I had been considering it - you convinced me!) Switzerland Venice thing... It seemed that on the rail sight that Salzburg was much closer to Munich, than the other cities so I hoped to avoid back tracking, although I can see exactly what you mean when looking on a map (my desktop has turned into my Itinerary!)... So... umm yeah..

I looked it up and from Munich to Salzburg is 1.5 hr where as to Lucerne its more like 6 hours... From interLaken to Venice its about 6 hours... however I could always go via Milan (like an extra half hour) so I could spend half a day there so I still get to see it - but dont take too many days out of the trip for it, or isnt it worth it?... (6 hours) --opposed to Salzburg to Venice which would be 5.5hours, so more travel time in the end anyway... ?

[cher1e]

For some reason my computer is being all weird - so I'll try continuing now - sorry for all the typos in the last post!

Going from Venice to the Istrian coast definately makes sense... I was a bit unsure of trains - that was all... do you know if you can you go directly to the coast from Venice?

Im confused... Is it hard to get flights from Athens to London? Sorry I just didnt get what you meant- going from Turkish coast to Greek island to Athens)... the idea is to work in London for about 4 months (travelling around a bit on my time off - I REALLY want to go to russia for at least a week) and then to Fly back to Australia, stopping perhaps in Egypt or Asia somewhere depending on finances... time really isnt an issue as I ill be taking the whole year off.

BTW: I think its going to be more like 11 weeks then 9 weeks!!!! ;D

Thanks again -- everyone is so helpful!