Spain, France, Switzerland, Netherlands...Advice?

[jleins]

Hi all,

This summer I'm going to be in Europe for approximately 10 weeks. The first 4 will just be me traveling independently wherever I choose and the last 6 will be based in London for my study abroad courses.

So really I am most concerned about the first 4 weeks, although we are free to go wherever on the weekends (Fri-Mon) during my studies. I'll be buying a Eurail pass, probably the 4 county connected pass (Benelux, France, Spain, Switzerland)

I've been doing some reading and I planned on flying into Madrid and then flying out of London at the end of the 10 weeks. Here is my itinerary so far:

Madrid (2-3 days)
Barcelona (3 days)
Avingon, France (mabye just a day, worth it?)
Nice, France (2 days)
Lake Geneva region of Switzerland (2 days)
Bernese Oberland (mabye stay in Interlaken) (3 days)
Bern, Swtizerland (2 days) - Or Luzern?
Amsterdam (2-3 days)
Paris (3 days) -> Chunnel to London

When in London: not really sure as I've done all of my research on mainland Europe. Any must sees on the island besides Stonehenge and Endinburg?

Note: I'm planning to go to a couple museums including Van Gogh in Amsterdam as well as the Louvre in Paris. However, I don't want to fill up my schedule with tons of museum visits as I think they would get old really fast. I would like to experience Europe exploring by myself, not led by a tour guide everywhere I go.

A couple other questions:
1) How many days is optimal in each city? Would I get tired of a city after 3 days?

2) Is it worth it to squeeze in Belgium, as it will be included on the train pass?

3) How does the itinerary look overall?

4) Since I'm a fairly serious photographer (advanced amateur) I'll be taking along my DSLR (Canon 30D) and 2 lenses along with my 13" macbook. I would kill myself if I was in the swiss alps and I had a point and shoot So.... I need to book only hostels with security lockers. Are these generally large enough for a small daypack?

RE: #4 - I know its advised to travel light, but since I'm only 20 and am in good shape (workout/run 4 times a week, including squats), I don't think the extra 5 lbs or so will kill me. I will be taking a DSLR no matter what, so please don't advise me to keep it at home. I just upgraded specifically for this trip!

5) Where to stay in the Lake Geneva region, and where in Central Switzerland near Interlaken?

6) Any other cities I should hit that arn't too out of the way? I'm looking for places with 1 or more of the following:
Scenery, cool locals, some English speakers at least, good bars, good beer, great food (I can enjoy almost any cuisine).

7) The cheapest airfare I can find is around $1200, is this resonable?

8) What rail pass should I get (10 or 15 days?)


Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and reply, it will help a bunch in my planning!

Edit: Whats the most efficient way to fit in Prague? A cheap weekend flight from London possible, since Ryan Air is based there if I understand correctly?

[herrbert]

Hi jliens,

First of all I think you need to give yourself a little more time in most places. As for getting boring in a city ... well you will only get bored if there is nothing to do, that you like. So do your research.

For Madrid, I would advise the days you have, but to add 2 days for daytrips. One to Toledo, and one to Segovia. (You can also do some research on other places, like Chinchon, Aranjuez (not on a Monday, I found out the hard way that everything is closed on Mondays). Travel (train/bus) is pretty cheap, so you might want to wait to stamp your pass, and pay p2p for these daytrips.

Barcelona I would recommend 4 days, and see it you want to do some daytrips here as well.

I also need to say, that Spain has more to offer, than Barcelona and Madrid. If you have some time left, take a look at getting Sevilla and Granada on your list.

For Avignon & Nice, I will leave it to the others. You might want to consider Carcassonne, if it is not too far out of the way. For Paris you need more days.

Switzerland: I would head straight for a place in the Alps. (Gimmelwald), and spend days there.

If you are heading from Amsterdam to Paris by train, you will pass through Belgium anyway, so I would reserve 2 days for Brugges.

Lockers are usually pretty big, but there is always the possibility to leave valuables at the reception.

I am not specialist for airfares crossing the Atlantic, but if you tell us were you coming from it would help others to tell you if 1200 is too much or not (my guess is that it can be done a little cheaper)

First take a look at where you want to go. If you know where you are going, you can work out how many days, and countries you need on your pass. www.railsaver.com can help you to choose the right pass.

I can't find any flights from London to Prague by RyanAir, but you can book a by Easyjet.

From London, you can do daytrips, or weekends to Bath, Brighton, Canterbury, Stratford. If you can leave in the afternoon on a Friday, you could even see a piece if Wales in a weekend.

[Eagle]

jleins, Welcome!!! I have a few comments to add to herrbert's suggestions, as well as a few questions regarding your plans. These are listed in much the same order as presented in your Post.

-- Must sees in the U.K. - there's LOTS to see, but this will depend to some extent on what you're most interested in? A few possibilities - Bath, Cotswolds, Liverpool, Blackpool, York, North York Moors, Lakes District, Edinburgh & other parts of Scotland, Wales and possibly Ireland if you're interested. If you're interested in military history, there are LOTS of Museums in the U.K. including the Imperial War Museum in London and the IWM North in Manchester (Salford Quays area). There are quite a few Regimental Museums in Winchester and an awesome Tank Museum in Bovington.

-- Museums - the Museums do tend to become a bit of a "blur" after awhile if one visits a lot of them, however some are exceptional so they're worth a look. One suggestion though regarding the Louvre. You might want to concentrate on just one wing, as it would be very time consuming to see all of them properly. The Denon wing is probably the best choice, as that's where the Mona Lisa is located. I would highly recommend getting a Paris Museum Pass, as it makes the entry a lot easier, and provides entry to other sites around Paris as well. You might want to consider the Musee d'Orsay as well, as there's a great collection of impressionist art.

Now to your "numbered" questions:

1) The "optimal" time in each city will probably depend on what you want to do & see in each city. I normally allocate 1-2 days to smaller locations and 5-6 days in larger cities (Rome, Paris), as there's so much more to see.

2) If you can fit the time in, you would probably enjoy a stop in Belgium. Most here seem to prefer Brugges over Brussels. Your choice?

3) Your Itinerary looks reasonably logical. However, you've only used about 22 days out of the 30 that you have available. I would suggest adding at least two days in Paris.

Regarding your stay in the Berner Oberland, you might want to consider Gimmelwald - it's a BIG favourite here! There are several B&B's and a great Hostel. The Pensione may or may not be open, as they closed in October due to a "dispute". One thing I really enjoyed there was sitting on the patio in the late afternoon with a Beer, watching the sun set over the mountains (they seemed to turn a bit "pink" in colour). Despite the rural location, there seemed to be Fighter Jets flying through the area quite frequently, but I didn't find that to be a problem. Check the web site if you're interested.

4) I completely agree that it's worth the trouble to pack along a dSLR and associated kit!!! I had a few doubts about that before my trip last fall, but decided to take my Rebel XT with 17-85 "walkabout lens", two extra Lenses (10-22 wide angle and 70-300 DO Zoom), Flash unit and PHD (make sure that you pack the Camera & Lenses carefully). I found that the wide angle Lens got much more use than I had anticipated. There are lots of great photo op's everywhere, especially the Swiss Alps.

I have somewhat "mixed" feelings about travelling with a Computer. The usual term I use to describe this is that travel with a Laptop has a "high worry factor", due not only to theft but also damage (especially while backpacking). I have a MacBook Pro, but I've found out from hard experience that these aren't as robust as they might be (especially for travel), and can sometimes be damaged quite easily. Make sure that the computer is WELL padded in your luggage. Also, be sure to pack along a good quality Padlock for securing this in the Hostels (I submitted a post here on the Boards last year regarding points to look for when choosing a Padlock, if you're interested). However, as you're going to be in London for 6 weeks for studies, I can understand your reasoning for packing it along.

5) I haven't researched lodging choices in the Lake Geneva region; I assume you'll be staying in Hostels? In Interlaken there are some good choices. If you want to stay in Interlaken for a night or two, have a look at Balmer's Herberge. In Gimmelwald check out the Mountain Hostel.

6) Not sure if you'll have time for too many more cities in the 30 days or so that you have available?

7) It's difficult to say whether $1200 is reasonable for airfare, as I don't know where you're flying from???

8) It's hard to suggest a rail pass until your Itinerary is finalized a bit more. You might find that a Flex pass will be the best method? Once you've finalized the details somewhat, enter your list of cities into www.railsaver.com and it will suggest the most appropriate pass.

Regarding your last question, were you planning to fit Prague into the four week portion of your trip, or perhaps as a weekend or whatever during your six weeks in London (BTW, what are you studying)?

One other point that occurs to me is that as you'll be travelling in summer, the accomodations situation will be a bit "busy" to say the least. You might want to consider pre-booking at least some of them.

Good luck with your planning. Cheers!!!

[jleins]

Eagle,

Great post, thanks a bunch. I'm considering buying the 10-22 canon lens, but already have the 17-40L, so i'm not sure if it would be worth it. How much did you end up using that vs the 17-85? I actually just sold my XT to my brother and picked up the 30D. Both are great cameras!

I may try to fit in Brugges since I'll be over in that area anyways. Should I take the chunnel to London from Brussels or Paris? If I'm not mistaken it only goes to those 2 cities?

As far as Switzerland, how long does it take to get around the Bernese Oberland? For example from Grimmelwald to Interlaken?

I'm flying from Detroit, Michigan, USA out of DTW airport.

For Prague, I'm not sure how I'm going to get there, but I want to fit it in somehow, probably by plane.

[herrbert]

If you can reserve some cheap tickets for the Channel Tunnel, you can do that, but these cheap seats are non-refundable tickets, and these will cost 45 euros, if I am not mistaken.

You can also opt for a plane, to get to Paris or Brussels. BMIbaby or Easyjet can give you a good price.

Gimmelwald to Interlaken is about one hour by train. you can check the time you spend on train in Europe, on the website of the Deutsche Bahn. www.bahn.de

Easyjet is flying London - Prague and back twice a day (from Gatwick and Stansted), so there will be plenty of possiblities to see Prague. (If you have questions about Prague, you can aks Ray in his topic). If you have a bank holiday in those six weeks, than I would prefer, that weekend, because flying into Prague on fridayevening, and back again on Sunday, would be rushing it, one day extra would help a lot.

[pointofnoreturn]

You're travelling in the summer so fares will be much higher.... I think 1200 is a bit on the high end for a budget traveller. Perhaps buying tickets on a fare sale might help. It's actually cheaper to fly into Paris or London (actually, try to not to fly out of London because of the air tax that's been imposed). So look for flights in Germany and Paris to see how much they are.

[Eagle]

jleins, I didn't really keep track of how much I used the 10-22 vs the 17-85 (I'd have to check the EXIF on each shot), but I suspect it would be about equal. The 70-300 DO got only limited use, but I was still glad that I packed it along.

From what I've heard and read, the 17-40L is an awesome Lens, however I've also heard lots of great comments about the 10-22 and I wanted the extra "wide angle reach" (not quite a fish-eye, but close). In my case, the 17-85 covers the same range as the 17-40, and I decided I wanted to travel with only three Lenses which provide an overall range of 10-300 (more with the 1.6x crop factor). The Flash was useful on a couple of occasions, but ANY Flash is limited somewhat when travelling in Europe as a lot of Museums, etc. won't allow Flash Photography, and some won't allow Tripods. Having the extra ISO range was a big improvement over a P&S Camera, although I tried really hard not to go over 800 as I didn't want the increased "noise".

It only takes about 30-45 minutes to get to Gimmelwald from Interlaken. Here's the route you'll need to take:

> train to Interlaken Ost / East (make sure you don't get off at Interlaken West)

> local Berner Oberland train to Lauterbrunnen (trip is about 20 minutes from what I recall)

> Post Bus (bright yellow, hard to miss!) to Stechelberg and the Cable Car station (only about a 5-10 minute trip). You only have to walk across the street from the Rail station to board the Bus. You'll probably see it when you arrive.

> Cable Car to Gimmelwald, which is the first stop (if you're going to carry on to Murren, it's necessary to change Cars). Depending on where you're staying in Gimmelwald, it's only about a 3-5 minute walk. The Mountain Hostel is virtually right next to the Cable Car station, so it's less than 1 minute.

An important tip - when you get to Interlaken Ost, go into the ticket office and buy a ticket to Gimmelwald. This includes the rail, bus and cable car rides. When you buy the ticket, make sure you "take a number" and go to the ticket window indicated on your tag! The ticket agents "tore a strip" off the girl that was in line behind me, as she didn't follow the procedure.

On the way back, buy your ticket to get to Interlaken Ost at the ticket window in the Gimmelwald Cable Car station. I believe there's a discount for those with a rail pass that includes Switzerland, so make sure you take your pass with you to the ticket window.

An alternative would be to take the small local train that goes directly to Murren (AFAIK it originates in Lauterbrunnen). Once in Murren you could either take the Cable Car down to Gimmelwald or walk down (takes about 30 minutes to hike downhill -- it's all paved and is wide enough for a small car or tractor, so it's not difficult).

It would be difficult to provide an estimate on "how long it takes to get around the Berner Oberland", as that would depend on where you're going? If you want to check out the other valley and visit Grindelwald or the Jungfrau, it's possible to do this as a day trip.

Happy travels!!!

[madamtrashheap]

jleins said:

I may try to fit in Brugges since I'll be over in that area anyways. Should I take the chunnel to London from Brussels or Paris? If I'm not mistaken it only goes to those 2 cities?

To get pedantic, the Eurostar also travels directly to Lille and Avignon from London, as well as Paris and Brussels (oh, and it stops in Calais too). Would you consider doing Brussels or Brugge as a weekend break from London once you're studying? Same for Prague (flying, not training of course!) - although you'd have to leave on a Friday to make it worth the trip.

When you're based in London, you'll be able to take day trips on weekends to many of the places Eagle listed, it just depends on what you'd like to see most. Plus there are cheap flights to Dublin (Aer Lingus, Ryanair) from London to be found.

As for everything else...what the others said! ;D

[jleins]

Yep,

Right now I am thinking I'll take a weekend and do Prague by air since I guess there are flights going over 2x a day for fairly cheap. One thing I'm worried about is the hostel situation. I've heard anything from book 3 months in advance to no booking necessary. I've also heard Amsterdam is likely to fill the nicer hostels.

Whats the deal?

[herrbert]

Try to book when you know the exact dates, you are going. Booking far ahead will give you more options, than if you wait until the last moment. Sometimes events will make it more difficult to book an accomodation (esp. popular events in smaller cities). For some hostels (very popular) booking ahead is a must, if you want to stay there.

Check Hostelworld or Gomio for availability, but always read the reviews, also check the hostal section on this website. This should provide enough information to most of the hostels. If you still doubt, drop a question in the accomodation topic, it's likely somebody stayed in that city, or even at the hostel you are looking at, so she/he will give you the information you are looking for.