Planning a 4-6 Week Trip to Europe Next Summer

[magnav0x]

I've been digging around the net and these forums for a while trying to get a grasp on what is realistically doable in a 4 week time frame (for me an my wife). I pretty much decided we need to put back $200/day for the both of us. I presume this is a safe number to work with based on what I've been reading. BTW, we will be leaving approximately June 4th 2008 and returning somewhere between July 4th and July 18 (depending on how much we can actually save).

I initially picked MANY cities to see thinking I'd have plenty of time. In order: London, Paris, Brussels, Bruge, Amsterdam, Mannheim (friend is stationed there), Prague, Lauterbrunnen Valley, Rome, Venice, and Cinque Terra (then fly back to London).

I haven't even started trying to figure out how much time to spend in each place. Reason being is I don't know how much time I will realistically need. We are not the type to spend our time on tours and/or museums. We are more or less interested in seeing the sites. To be honest we're not interested in much in London, other than seeing the main attractions. Paris, we would just be interested in the Eiffel Tower and Catacombs.

I know most people think 3-5 days should be necessary for France and London, but honestly I think I'd be bored after two days. I think our main goal will probably be seeing as much as possible without being rushed, but at the same time we won't be spending hours at each location. A sufficient up close look at the Eiffel Tower would be good for me (Take a few pictures) and maybe a quick walk around the catacombs for an hour or so.

Personally I'm more excited about seeing Lauterbrunnen Valley and Cinque Terra than anything else. My wife has pretty much just left the planning to me, because she doesn't know what she wants to see exactly. I'm not much for crowds, so obviously I don't want to spend a lot of time in crowded areas such as London, Rome, Paris, Venice, but I do want to see them and get a feel for what the culture is like. Our main goal in a place like Venice would to just be able to take a ride down the channels.

We were thinking will probably need to get the Eurail Global Pass Saver since we'll be going through so many countries. Maybe we actually don't need that, but I'm just figuring max costs for now to be safe. I think maybe we'll fly directly from London to Venice and do a reverse order of my list, but I don't think it will matter either way. If I don't we'll just fly back to London from Venice.

I also did some preliminary searches on airline prices, but it's so early I can't on most. The only results I've been able to get was for about $950 per ticket from DFW to LON. What prices can I expect for a round trip that time of the year. I know it will probably vary quite a bit depending on whether we come back July 4th or July 18th.

Any info or suggestions on how to plan my itinerary and info on flight costs for that time of the year would be greatly appreciated. I'm in my very early stages of planning. Obviously I have a lot of time to get it together. As of right now I'm assuming it's a 30 day trip.

[madamtrashheap]

magnav0x, welcome (officially)!

I'll attempt to answer most of your queries/statements, but no doubt the others will also have some input into your plans. Good that you're planning now for next year and even though the airlines haven't released their schedules yet, you can plug in dates from this year to get an idea. As a general rule, the further ahead you book the better the price - although in Summer this can be negated.

Fair point about not wanting to spend too much time in London and Paris adn not being into museums - that's your preference. They are both amazing cities, but if they aren't priority places, then at least make a list of the must-sees (as you have) and perhaps some other suggestions will help you spend your days there. One thing I will suggest, however, is to not discount the interest of places like the British Museum, Tate Modern, Musee d'Orsay and even the Louvre. If you hate art and artefacts, then OK, but if you want to gain a little insight into why these places are mentioned often, then spare the time to go in. Most museums in London are free (yay!) too. Warning: you may be surprised a how much you enjoy Paris and London, so allow for time to go back one day. They can be seductive cities.

For cities, just a couple of points:
Paris - does Versailles hold any interest to you? IF you like scenery, head up to Sacre Coeur - good views, interesting basilica and cheap restaurants (to the left of the monument).
Brussels - Bruges/Brugge is probably more your pace, so stay there and visit Brussels on the way to Amsterdam
Mannheim - as you ahve a friend stationed there, you should also consider a day trip to Heidelberg and/or Mainz as both are in the region and worth a look. Also, the Black Forest is right there so you could take a train to Trier for a wander too.
Prague - no doubt you've seen the info on things to see in and around the city. If you're going out that far, would you consider Vienna as a stopover as well?
Lauterbrunnen Valley - think it's clear how we all feel about this part of the world (Bernese Oberland) on these Boards, so 'nuff said...just go! Having said that, don't discount places like Innsbruck and the Tirol in Austria, as these are very outdoors and scenery-laden places too.
Italy - the cities you visit will depend on the time you have allocated for here, but Rome, Venice, Cinque Terre and Florence would be my picks, just for scenery alone. And between Florence and CT you can throw in Pisa for a quick snap and gelati!

Venice is the most expensive Italian city, but one you should see at least once in your life, so allow for around Euro70-90 for a decent Gondola ride on the canals. The rest can be seen by literally getting lost in the streets (with no names!).

The type of train pass you need will depend on the number of countries you intend to visit and the route you take.

Hopefully that gives you a little more to go on, but once you begin to fill in the gaps of places to see you'll find the rest falls into place, and the suggestions will keep flowing from us!

Happy planning!

[me]

so, magnav0x, you're in the Dallas area? i've long been surprised at how few of us are here.

[magnav0x]

Well I think I will for the most part rail the entire trip, except for the flight back to London from Italy. My initial plans at the moment will probably be 2 days at each location. Though, I would probably pair Brussels and Brugge together in 2 days. Cinque Terra wouldn't need more than a day from what I read, but it might be a nice place to wind down after a chaotic and fast paced trip. Thanks for suggesting Heidelberg and the Black Forest! I don't think Versailles or Mainz would really interest me. I would have to say I'm probably more partial to scenic sites. This doesn't mean I want to ignore the significant things in the larger cities though.

London - 2 days (Bleh)
Paris - 2 days (Bleh)
Brussels & Bruge - 2 days (Would consider removing from itinerary)
Amsterdam - 2 days (I'm young, I like to party....nough said)
Mannheim, Heidelberg, & Black Forest - 2 days MAX(Just long enough to get my buddy trashed for old times sake)
Prague - 2 days (Cheap whiskey, Cuban Cigars, and Beer? I'm so there! Though it may not be my style)
Lauterbrunnen Valley - 2 days (at the very least! I'm considering becoming a swiss watch maker if I can talk my wife into staying)
Rome - 2 or 3 days (May extend my stay longer if I can make it 2 days without getting robbed a few times)
Venice - 2 or 3 days (Wife is a sucker for "romantic" stuff. Gotta take her on a Gondola ride, so she can quit bugging me about it when she sees couples do it in the movies.)
Cinque Terra - Day trip? (Long enough for me to get hurt trying to cannon ball off one of the cliffs)

This leaves almost 10 days for travel/extra time. I haven't gone through all the rail info yet to see exactly how much travel time that will equate too. That is something I will try to do later today, just so I have an idea of how much time will be wasted on the rail. I could possibly be persuaded into Vienna. I had thought about it previously, but figured I had way too much as it was.

I know people will chime in with suggested itineraries regarding how much time to spend in each place and that's what I'm hoping for. Hopefully my trip will actually turn into a 6 week trip and I'll have much more time to spend in the places that we instantly fall in love with.

To be honest I never even heard of Cirque Terra or Lauterbrunnen Valley until I started researching this and other forums. I use Google Images to search for things sometimes and I thought both were must sees instantly. So suggestions are always welcome...I'm still quite flexible with my plans.

There is one question I had and I forgot to include it in the first post. I did notice that even with a Rail Pass you will need to make "reservations" in some places. I went to raileurope.com and check on a trip from London to Paris via the rail and it cost $380 even with a rail pass?! That seems a bit ridiculous. Is that right? I would think it would be much cheaper to just fly EasyJet or some other discount airline. Is there a cheaper way to get from London to Paris? Defeats the purpose of paying $940 each for a Global Pass Saver if it's going to gost $190 each for "reservations" to Paris. I know a majority of the other countries won't have those charges, but that seemed a bit steep.

Yeah, from the Dallas area. Waxahachie to be exact! Yeah I know...with a name like that everyone should be flocking to Texas and not Europe....

[Eagle]

magnav0x, as MTH mentioned, Welcome! I have a few thoughts to add as well.

Although you stated that you don't want to spend much time in London or Paris, I concur with MTH in that you might find these to be somewhat "seductive" and you might enjoy them more than you anticipated. A few comments on the locations you listed:

> London - 2 days? [you might want to allocate 4 days here, as you'll lose the first day due to flight times and it will likely take you a day to get over jet lag, leaving two days for touring. That's not enough time for London IMHO, but of course that's your choice. There's also the possibility of making some day-trips from London to places such as Bath, Stonehenge, etc.]

> Paris - 2 days? [again, this is isn't much time for a city like Paris - there's SO MUCH to see there!]

> Brusssels & Brugges - 2 days [were you planning one day in each city, or base in one city and day-trip to the other?]

> Amsterdam - 2 days [I'm older so not much of a "partier" but that seems like a good time allotment]

> Mannheim, Heidelberg, Black Forest [if you get your buddy "trashed", it might take you two days to recover!]

> Prague - 2 days? [you stated that you're "so there" - perhaps adding another day here to enjoy the city would be prudent?]

> Lauterbrunnen Valley - 2 days? [depending on what you want to see & do in the area, you might want to add a day or two?]

> Rome - 2 or 3 days? [most here feel that 5 days is the minimum for Rome, given the extent of the history there. Again this will depend on what you want to see & do, and whether you want to take any day-trips? Are you nervous about being robbed while in Rome? That can happen anywhere in Europe, so it's wise to excercise caution throughout your travels - as Rick Steves recommends, wear a Money Belt!]

> Venice - 2 or 3 days?

> Cinque Terre - day trip? [it is indeed an excellent place to unwind after strenous touring in big cities! I used it as an R&R stop after Rome, and my time there was fantastic!!! I can hardly wait to return! You'll have to decide which of the five villages you want to base yourselves in. The "official" Hostel is in Manarola, but be aware they have a lengthy lockout period during the day (and it is a LOCKOUT!) There are lots of private rooms available in each of the towns, and most of the large "touristy" Hotels are in Monterosso al Mare. Hiking the trails between the villages seems to be a mandatory activity with everyone that visits the C.T.]

I noticed that Florence and other locations in Tuscany are not on the list? Many people like to have at least one stop in bella Toscana, but I suppose this might depend on whether you're able to extend your trip to six weeks? Lago di Como (Varenna, Bellagio) is another favourite "romantic" location you might consider.

Regarding air travel, I would highly recommend using "open jaw" flights to & from DFW. These often cost a bit more initially but can save money in the long term. This is a much more efficient way to travel! Although the flight schedules for next year won't be released for several months, you might want to speak with a travel agent, as they should be able to provide an approximation of costs based on this year's fares.

You won't be able to determine the most suitable Rail Pass until you have a somewhat finalized Itinerary. Use the bahn.de and railsaver.com web sites for planning your rail trips. With the London - Paris route on the EuroStar, there is a discounted fare for those with a Railpass, which does not use a Flexipass travel day. I belive the cost for one-way 2nd class fare is about US$81.00 per person. You can certainly use budget airlines for the London-Paris trip, but keep in mind these often use airports which are somewhat distant from the city centres (ie: Stanstead & Luton) so you'll have to plan and budget for the trip to these airports and of course the requirement of being there about 2 hours before flight time and going through the nuisance of security, etc. One other important point is that often the budget airlines have very restrictive baggage limits, so you might end up paying more than you anticipated for the flights.

Finally, regarding "reservations". Yes, some trains require mandatory reservations, even for those with a Rail pass (usually the ICE and fast trains such as the TGV). These are easy to obtain - I usually stop by the station a day or two before my outgoing trips and purchase the reservations. The reservations are not terribly expensive, but you will definitely need to allow for these.

You might find it helpful to read a few country or city-specific Guidebooks to get some ideas on which sites and activities in each city will be of most interest to you and your wife.

Cheers!!!

[magnav0x]

Thanks for the the input, I really appreciate it. I was expecting the "2 days WHA?!" for some of those locations. To be honest I'm so not interested in London I'll probably try to avoid it all together and save it for a separate 1 week trip in an off peak season at some other point in time. I'll also save about $400 in Chunnel reservations.

If it's cheaper for me to fly in and out of London then I'll still go with London. Hopefully I can find a flight into and from Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, or Rome (Open Jaw)? It's funny you mentioned a travel agent, as I was thinking of doing the same while reading the early parts of Rick Steve's Europe Through the Back Door. It seems difficult to swing a good deal on open jaw flights on the internet, so I may let the pros do it for me. His book also mentions buying tickets for summer in January - March. Do they typically have better deals 4-6 months ahead of time that they wouldn't 9 or 10 months early?

[Eagle]

magnav0x,

To be honest I'm so not interested in London I'll probably try to avoid it all together

I'm assuming that you're not interested in London for this particular trip mainly on the basis of budget considerations? It's a wonderful city with lots to see, however, it is a very expensive city for travel!

Regarding your inbound flight, if you don't use London you should be able to find some good fares into some of the other major hub airports (Amsterdam / Schiipol or Paris / CDG). If you decide to drop London, an easy route would be Amsterdam - Brussels / Brugges - Paris to start with.

Hopefully I can find a flight into and from Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, or Rome

Could you clarify this a bit? Were you mainly planning to use budget airlines to get around Europe or were you going to use rail for the most part? Generally speaking, the most efficient travel method is rail, except for longer and more time intensive routes (ie: Paris - Madrid, Madrid - Rome). Rail terminals are always close to the city centre, and I tend to prefer this method as I can usually be in my Hotel within about 15 minutes after getting off the train.

It's funny you mentioned a travel agent, as I was thinking of doing the same

Yes, like Rick I always use a Travel Agent for longer intercontinental flights. In my case, there are several reasons for this:

- I've found in the past that my Travel Agent is often able to find really good deals on flights, sometimes with airlines I've never heard of. A good example of this was my last trip to the U.K. - my T.A. got a great deal on an "open jaw" flight into Manchester and departing from Gatwick. While it's possible I could have "stumbled across" the same deal eventually, it probably would have meant many long hours searching the net.

- All air tickets purchased here are covered by a travel insurance fund, which all Travel Agents are required to subscribe to. In the event the airline has a "problem", travellers can get a refund. While I suspect there wouldn't be any problems if I purchased the tickets myself, the Canada 3000 situation is still quite prominent in my memory. Some of the travellers affected by the demise of that airline were required to pay hugely exorbitant fares just to get home, with no refunds possible! I usually purchase shorter regional flights on the net, but I highly doubt either of the airlines I normally use will ever have a problem.

I also use a Travel Agent to book car rentals. The firm I use has some really good "travel partners" for that sort of thing, and they can often obtain some great deals! For example, I recently booked a one-week rental for the U.K. this fall and my Travel Agent was able to find a "sale price" at a very attractive price!

I normally use a combination of Guidebooks and the net to book lodgings, as I prefer to pick these in a location and price range that is best for the circumstances. I find that a combination of budget Hotels and Hostels seems to be the best "mix" for my tastes. I like to have a bit more privacy some nights, for a break from "communal living". The cost is often not that much more than Hostels and usually breakfast is provided (the type of breakfast varies by region).

His book also mentions buying tickets for summer in January - March. Do they typically have better deals 4-6 months ahead of time that they wouldn't 9 or 10 months early?

That's a difficult question for me to answer, as I'm not too familiar with the airlines operating in the DFW area? I normally prefer charters for flights to Europe, as they consistenly have better fares than some of the "full service" airlines (unless there's a "seat sale" happening). Both Air Transat and Zoom Air operate from this area, so I use either one of those for flights. Last fall I used Air Transat to Frankfurt and returned home via Zoom from Paris.

Regarding the ticket prices, in my experience with the charter airlines these don't change too much once the prices are posted. Therefore, theoretically it shouldn't matter whether one purchases a ticket in January or June. However, the reality is that some flights are often sold-out months in advance. I found this to be the case when I booked flights this year in May or June, for travel in September - two days after I booked, the flight was sold-out! It's virtually impossible to predict when seat sales are going to be listed, so I usually just try to find the best deal and then book it.

It's great that you have a copy of Europe Through The Back Door ! It's an excellent resource for planning, however the RS country and city-specific Guidebooks are much better for choosing lodgings and sight seeing options.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your planning!

[magnav0x]

Thanks for all the advice. I did indeed contact a travel agent last night and she was able to give me a quote for $750 for a round trip to Amsterdam which is about $200 cheaper than what I've seen on the net.

We will indeed be getting a Eurail pass. We figure we will be getting the 1 month Eurail Global Saver pass for now. I don't plan on doing any flying within Europe as of now.

My wife and I have decided we won't goto London. This will save us at least $200 just from the Chunnel ride. It may save us more than we actually realize. On top of that, it will add some extra time for another place or two. However, I did tell my wife we'd go there for 1 week sometime. She's a teacher, so has plenty of holidays of at least one week (spring break, summer, thanksgiving, winter break). We can probably go in the off peak season some other time.

Also I think we're going to use Rick Steve's 22 day itinerary of Europe as a rough guide for our 4-6 week trip and tweak it for our own needs.

After reading so many good things about the Rhine area, I think I want to go there now. Mannheim may not actually make it on my list (my buddy may just have to take the back seat to our trip).

Going
Paris
Lauterbrunnen Valley
Rome
Cinque Terre
Rome
Venice
Amsterdam

Probably
Brussels/Bruges
Rhine
Prague

Maybe
Florence
Mannheim

What I'm struggling with most is how to approach the trip if I include Laterbrunnen and Prague. I suppose I could go from Germany to Prague and then Prague to Venice. I could do Lauterbrunnen in between Rome (or Florence) and Paris.

[me]

Starting in Spring, British Airways & American Airlines will start flights from DFW to LHR - lots of great connections there!

Heathrow seems to have many more options than Gatwick.

for a little taste of Central Europe in your neck of the woods, czech out Westfest, or Ennis' Polkafest.

Say, what did they ever do with all the land from the Superconducting Super Collider project they planned in Waxahachie but was canceled in the '90's?

- d

[magnav0x]

As far as I know, the land is still sitting and doing nothing. I think some trucking company is using the main buildings from it as a warehouse now.... Before that, they used it once for a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie.

Spring huh? Not sure I'll wait that long to book my flights. I'm pretty dead set on flying somewhere into mainland Europe now and not going to the UK. I've heard of the Polkafest, it's right down the highway, but I've never gone to check it out. I think it would be hard to get a "feeling" for anything in Ennis. ;D The one downer to living in Texas, is international flights are quite a bit more expensive than say, Chicago, NYC, etc.

[me]

oh, i think you can book the DFW- LHR flights already. it's just that they won't let you book any flights more than "329 days in advance."

to go most places in Europe, you'll need a connecting flight. [some direct flights to Europe from DFW are no longer flying. British Airways (to LHR starting in Spring, but they sell tix already), Lufthansa (to FRAnkfurt) & American Airlines (to LGW, LHR in Spring, FRA, Paris - CDG & ZURich until this Fall, which doesn't help you), are the only airlines still flying from DFW non-stop to Europe] and LHR has the most connection posiblities for Europe.

so, you might need to wait a bit to book flights leaving 2008 July 4, anyway.

also, airlines sometimes have fare sales associated with starting new service -LHR. i'd suggest keeping an eye out for those.

magnav0x said:

Spring huh? Not sure I'll wait that long to book my flights. I'm pretty dead set on flying somewhere into mainland Europe now and not going to the UK.

[magnav0x]

Travel agent quoted $750 for round trip tickets to Amsterdam. I may opt for that. She said I can book August 13th. That seems pretty cheap for that time of the year and from Dallas. I don't know how much better I can or can't expect. You may know better than me, having done this yourself from the same area as me ;D

[WillTravel]

For a summer trip, that does sound really good, and it would relieve a lot of anxiety to have this booked so far in advance. Ask her if starting or ending with any other city is an option, so you can get the open-jaw benefit.

[me]

Don't know. back in '99, i bought tix from British Airways. they had a "sale of the century," flights DFW - LGW for US$99 each way. [less than US$300 round trip with taxes included]

they've had similar sales a few times since then, and i'm thinking they *might* do such a sale to initiate service from DFW to Heathrow.

willtravel said:

For a summer trip, that does sound really good, and it would relieve a lot of anxiety to have this booked so far in advance. Ask her if starting or ending with any other city is an option, so you can get the open-jaw benefit.

[magnav0x]

We were thinking of saving Cinque Terra and Lauterbrunnen for the end of the trip to wind down. We may just go with a round trip to Brussels, Amsterdam, or Frankfurt. I figure we'll do something similar to this:

Amsterdam -> Rhine
Rhine -> Mannheim
Mannheim -> Prague
Prague -> Venice
Venice -> Rome
Rome -> Cinque Terra
Cinque Terra -> Lauterbrunnen
Lauterbrunnen -> Paris
Paris -> Bruge/Brussels
Bruge/Brussels -> Amsterdam

We decided if we goto Mannheim it would be for just one day. Bruges/Brussels can be taken out if we use up too much time in the other places.

I think we've pretty much decided on a 5 week trip. Though I hate to have to buy 2 month Eurail Passes for 5 weeks. I'd much rather do a 6 week trip if we have to do that.

We may end up just doing a 4 week trip, just to save the $800 extra we'd need for 2 Month passes and $1400 for budgeting. That is the last thing holding us back on the airline front is deciding between a 4, 5, and 6 week trip. Realistically it will probably be 5 weeks at the longest, but who knows.

We told the travel agent we were going to wait until the end of September or October before we booked to ensure we know exactly what we want to do.