plan for 35 days in europe

[lebsam11]

hey everyone,
i started thinking about backpacking in europe a few weeks ago and i havent been able to stop thinking about it since. ive decided to do it either this summer or next depending friends' finances and availability. after researching the plausibility of several itineraries, this route makes the most sense to me as far as geographic location and train routes go.

fly into barcelona: 5 days
barcelona to nice/monaco (via montpellier, this is my one major pain in the ass travel day): 3 days
nice-la spezia/cinque terre (via milan): 2 days
la spezia-rome: 5 days
rome-venice: 1 day
venice-bern: 4-5 days (my base in switzerland, day trips all around)
bern-vienna(night train via zurich): 3-4 days
vienna-munich(night train): 3-4 days
munich-amsterdam(City Nightline): 3 days
amsterdam-paris(Thayls): 5 days
paris-london(eurostar): 3-4 days

would be done with a 1 month eurail pass

any suggestions or comments would be great. good day trips to do from any of these places? good hostels. i want the woodstock in paris and the beehive in rome but im open to anything else. id like to avoid flying pigs in amsterdam cause im not quite that wild.
thanks
-Sam

[herrbert]

Hey Sam,

I think you get it well on the time you should send in each city. Take the 4 days for London, without the daytrips.

Bern is not really a good place for a base in Switzerland, it's just too far away from the mountains, and just too far from the lakes. I would concentrate on two other places. One place everybody here seems to be really enthousiastic about (and I have yet to go to myself) is Gimmelwald.

Daytrips:
Rome - obviously Pompeii (seeing Naples on the way there)
Vienna - Bratislava
Munich - Castles (Neuschwanstein / Hohenschwanstein)
Amsterdam - Haarlem, Utrecht, Rotterdam (Holland is so small almost everything is possible as a daytrip :-)
Paris - Versailles
London - Bath, Stonehenge, Canterbury (some people prefer to stay in Bath for one night, to have more time).

Information on most of them, you will find on the boards (just use the search button).

If you know what your route will be, check railsaver to make a calculation and advice on which railpass, you should take

P.S. Take a good look at the conditions to book a room at the beehive, they are really popular and booked full in advance very soon.

[madamtrashheap]

Sam,

just to add a few things to Herrbert's suggestions:

Barcelona to Nice - it is a long journey, but the scenery is cool and Montpellier is worth a lunch stopover. The only way around it is to check out Iberian Air as they do fly Barcelona to Nice (Niza) direct (as well as via Madrid). Not sure how cheap it will be, but it's worth considering if time is a factor.

Cinque Terre - if you can stay here rather than La Spezia you'll love it! Not sure why you're going Nice-La Spezia/Cinque Terre via Milan as it's not exactly on the way. If you still want to visit Milan, you'd be better off working it in from Venice to Switzerland. I also notice you've not included Florence, any reason why not?

Switzerland - you'll find very enthusiastic recommendations for Gimmelwald on this site, so consider basing yourself in this area for your day trips rather than Bern as it's in the middle of what you'll want to see. Bern is a very pretty town, but as stated, it is a little way from the mountains and lakes.

Vienna - check this link pretravel.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=Transportation&action=display&n=1&thread=4812 for an idea on going to Bratislava for the day (or even just for breakfast!).

Paris - another day trip once you've done Versailles (it's a must!), is to Monet's gardens in Giverny. But don't do this to the detriment of seeing as much of Paris as you can. It's best to see the city this time round, then keep Giverny on your list for "next time".

London - you could also do a day trip that encompasses Windsor, Stonehenge and Bath. It's a long day, but if you take an organised tour you'll cover it all. It won't allow for masses of time in each place, however.

When you write "days" I'm assuming this means actual full days and not the nights you'll be there - yes?

As for Hostels, there are quite a few to choose from on this site, so have a look at the listings and see what takes your fancy. If you don't fancy the Flying Pig in Amsterdam, then stay away from the Bulldog Hostel as well. Maybe have a look at the White Tulip or the Orange Tulip or even Amsterdam Hostel Cosmos as they are still in the centre (near Centraal Station) but aren't as rowdy. As for Rome, there are quite a few mentions about places other than the Beehive, although it is good, so do a search on this site for suggestions.

[lebsam11]

thanks for your suggestions guys. just to clarify a few things. im well aware that barcelona to nice is a trek but its the only way i can feasibly go to both places without zigzagging the continent. for one i dont plan to stay in la spezia, thats just the rail station that my trip from nice would technically take me to and then id take the local train from there to cinque terre. and the reason i said via milan is that i looked on the raileurope site and id have to change trains in milan. i can probably go through genoa though. i really have no interest in seeing milan. and im not going to florence cause its only a month and florence is low on my list since im not diehard into art. im much more of a ruins/history buff and one of my days would be spent in pompei.
also i appreciate the input on switzerland. i was actually thinking of staying in interlaken and using that as a base for the bernese oberland, i cant really find any info on gimmelwald, only grindelwald but thats not the same place.
also when i say "days," i mean a full day in a place, so if i arrived in the evening that wouldnt count. obvious ill iron out the details when this is closer to being a reality but id want to stretch as much as i could out of a 1 month pass. theres no point in a 2 month flexipass cause i cant afford to be there that long.

[herrbert]

The only quicker route to Nice, that I can find, is to take a flight from Barcelona to Madrid, from Madrid to Marseille/Provence Airport, and then a 3 hours train-ride to Nice (Doesn't sound attractive at all.) There are a lot of flights available from Germany to both Nice and Marseille, but a normal flight Barcelona - Nice seems to be out of the question (weird thing).

The search mode is on a standard of 7 days, so you just have to make this more days. You can read the report of Eagle, who is travelling Europe at the moment (see the Living room). And these links will get you to some of the Gimmelwald threads:

pretravel.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=CCadvice&action=display&n=1&thread=3672
pretravel.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=CCadvice&action=display&n=1&thread=3682

[madamtrashheap]

Hi Sam,

thanks for clearing up the La Spezia reference - I wasn't sure if you were staying there because you weren't sure of the trains to the Cinque Terre villages, or if there was another reason. Now I see your train references. And the "days" are actual full days, nice one.

The best way to Cinque Terre from Nice would probably be via Genoa (Genova), then through to either La Spezia or check www.trenitalia.it for the village you're staying in (Monterosso, Vernazza, etc) and how it connects (ie through Levanto or La Spezia or direct). There are trains that stop at each village and some that are express and only stop in one or two. There is an information booth on Cinque Terre at La Spezia train station and they can inform you on the 5 Terre Card for train journeys in the region and other bits that will help you.

Fair point about Florence, save it for another time. Gimmelwald is above Murren and Lauterbrunnen, just up the valley from Interlaken. There are lots of references to it on this site, but try www.gimmelwald-news.ch/ or check posts by Eagle who was just there last week. Interlaken is pretty, stradling two lakes (hence the name), and depending on exactly what you plan to see/do, it can be a good base. If you want to stay smack in the middle of the mountains, then Gimmelwald, Lauterbrunnen, Grindelwald, Wengen or Stechelberg are all good. Gimmelwald is right in the clouds, hence it being a fave on this site.

Keep us posted.

[pointofnoreturn]

Won't post any suggestions for itineraries but I will do it this weekend. Here are some flight options I could find concerning the Spain-Italy/France routes:

My Air
Barcelona - Venice

Vueling
Barcelona - Madrid
Barcelona - Milan
Barcelona - Venice
Barcelona - Rome

Ryan Air
Madrid - Marseilles
Barcelona - Florence
Barcelona - Venice
Barcelona - Milan
Barcelona - Verona
Barcelona - Rome
Marseilles - Rome

easyJet
Madrid - Rome
Madrid - Milan

alpiEagles
Barcelona - Venice
Barcelona - Naples

Air Berlin
Barcelona - Rome
Barcelona - Milan
Madrid - Milan

Condor
Barcelona - Milan

As far as I know, there's no budget airline that flies to Nice though RyanAir comes the closest with Madrid-Marseilles. A helpful site: www.euroflights.info

[lebsam11]

wow, you guys really take this seriously. ive never been on a message board where i get a researched response. anyway thanks a lot for all your help. hopefully i can make this happen this summer.

[pointofnoreturn]

lebsam11 said:

wow, you guys really take this seriously. ive never been on a message board where i get a researched response. anyway thanks a lot for all your help. hopefully i can make this happen this summer.

Hahaha, yeah... I just enjoy helping people and making sure they have all the information they need. We're all like that at one point - not knowing what to do or where to start. Pretty soon, you'll be helping other people and giving them tips!

[Eagle]

lebsam11,

i cant really find any info on gimmelwald, only grindelwald but thats not the same place.

To add to the information that the others have posted, you can find information on Gimmelwald at www.gimmelwald.ch (there are others but I believe that's the "official" site - it appears to be the same site that MTH listed). I would most certainly recommend Gimmelwald, especially if you need a rest from more strenuous stops in your trip. It's a great place to relax, perhaps do some hiking and explore the other small villages in the area, take a trip to the Schilthorn, tour Trummelbach Falls, do some mountain biking or just enjoy the fantastic alpine scenery. Some of the most memorable days of my recent trip were sitting on the patio at the Pensione in the late afternoon having a Beer and watching the sun turn the glacier and the mountains a beautiful shade of pink. Listening to the Cow Bells added to the atmosphere.

I've been amazed on many occasions when talking to quite a number of people from Switzerland, both here in Canada and also in Switzerland. Most had never heard of Gimmelwald. The majority of them said "no, you mean Grindelwald", to which I replied "NO, I mean Gimmelwald". They usually figured out the location really quick when I said "Schilthorn Bahn". Grindelwald is actually in the next valley, so it's not really even that close to Gimmelwald.

Here's a bit of information on Gimmelwald, which might help in your planning......

You can get to Gimmelwald by taking the train to Interlaken. Note that there are two stations, Interlaken West and East - you need to go to the East station to transfer to the small local train that goes to Lauterbrunnen. At Interlaken East, go to the ticket window and buy a one-way ticket to Gimmelwald; this is good for the train, the Bus and the Gondola (be sure you "take a number" when going to the ticket window, or they'll tear a strip off you and you won't get served until you DO take a number; be sure also to go to the ticket window that matches the number you took). When you arrive in Lauterbrunnen, walk across the street to the large yellow Post Bus (which is timed to depart a few minutes after the train arrives). After about a ten minute trip, you'll be at the Schilthorn Bahn Gondola station in Stechelberg. Walk up the stairs, board the Gondola and you'll be in Gimmelwald in a few minutes (the ride up from Stechelberg is quite spectacular; I hope you're not afraid of heights).

Just to give you a more accurate picture of the layout, Gimmelwald is the first stop on the Schilthorn Bahn (which is actually a series of four Gondolas). If you transfer to the next Gondola, you stop in Murren. Transferring to a third Gondola takes you to Birg and the fourth Gondola takes you to the Piz Gloria revolving restaurant (apparently the world's first) on top of the Schilthorn at the 10,000 foot level. The James Bond movie "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" was filmed there many years ago, and I can assure you that the building didn't explode as shown in the movie! There are ticket windows at each stop, so it's possible to buy a ticket to the Schilthorn and return only to Murren on the way down (if you want to walk back to Gimmelwald); the price will be set according to which stops you choose. The walk from Murren to Gimmelwald is actually very easy as it's all paved and in fact is used as a road for small vehicles. It takes about 30 minutes going downhill to get from Murren to Gimmelwald.

There are several lodging choices in Gimmelwald (check the web site), but the Mountain Hostel is only a few steps from the Gondola station, as is the Pensione and Esther's Guest House (which just added a big addition at the back). The Pensione had the only restaurant in town but unfortunately they are going to be closing at the end of October 2006 and I'm not sure at this point if or when they will be re-opening? I believe most lodgings provide breakfasts (usually a "continental" style) but for the other meals, visitors are on their own. Walter (Hotel Mittaghorn) provides dinners but there are only two choices - Chicken one night and Spaghetti the next. There are lots of restaurants in Murren though.

With regards to travelling from Nice to the Cinque Terre, here's one option, having only one change and no reservations required:

Nice Ville We, 15.11.06 dep 08:34 RE 81125 RegionalExpress
Ventimiglia We, 15.11.06 arr 09:29
Ventimiglia We, 15.11.06 dep 09:48 R 33833 Regionalzug
2nd class only
La Spezia Centrale We, 15.11.06 arr 15:00

I used the date of Nov. 15th just to get some idea of the schedules, but you'll have to double check this as your travel dates get closer. Unfortunately the Rail schedules for 2007 haven't been posted yet. Check www.bahn.de for good schedule information. Once at La Spezia you will transfer to the local CT train. If you decide to stay in Riomaggiore (which is where I stayed), be ready to get off the train fairly quickly, as the ride from La Spezia is only eight minutes! You might find yourself in a tunnel, but if eight minutes has elapsed get off the train! There are lots of lodgings choices in the five towns, but the only Hostel is in Manarola (be aware that they have an afternoon lockout, so you won't even be able to check in if you arrive during the lockout period).

One other note if you decide to stay in Riomaggiore - you might want to pre-book your accomodation as at times everything can be booked up (this is probably true of all the towns). When you get off the train, you'll probably be greeted by the famous Mama Rosa who operates a lodging (Hostel?) close to the station. She will probably remind you that "Mama Rosa is La Prima numero uno in Riomaggiore" (she doesn't speak English though). I haven't seen what type of facility she has, so can't comment on it. If you need information on the "unique" way to get breakfast in Riomaggiore (if not provided at your lodging choice), post another note.

Hopefully this answers a few of your questions. Have fun with your planning!

[lebsam11]

ok a few questions. first of all what is a gondola? i thought those were the boats in venice? if your talking about those things that suspend you on a cable up a mountain slope then im gonna need some serious xanax cause even glass elevators freak me out. also i read in the frommers book that muren is actually more spectacular than gimmelwald. whats your opinion on this? either way, i think id rather stay in interlaken or atleast a larger village and then make daytrips up into the mountain villages, maybe sleeping in the barn one night just to have the experience but i heard there can be some major thunderstorms up there in the summer. as far as cinque terre goes, ill probably stay eithger in monteresso or riomaggiore so that i can be on one end of the trail or the other. anything else you guys wanna tell me would be great, this is like a free travel agency!

[Eagle]

lebsam11, To answer your questions, in using the term "Gondola" I was referring to a cable-car (suspended from cables). Perhaps I was using the wrong term? If you want to see what this looks like, check switzerland.isyours.com/e/guide/berner_oberland/muren.html for one view. I'm not generally bothered by heights, so found this to be a rather exhilarating experience (not quite as exhilarating as my Paragliding trip from Murren though - reaching the edge of the cliff and looking 2000 feet straight down into the valley was one of the highlights of my trip!).

With regards to the assessment of the two villages that you quoted from Frommer's, I think this is a rather simplistic view. I wonder what they mean by "spectacular"? That is perhaps to some extent subject to the "eye of the beholder"? Gimmelwald and Murren each have somewhat different characters. Gimmelwald is primarily a small farming village that also has promotes tourism and has a number of lodgings. It's very unique in many ways, and a great place to relax and just enjoy life. Murren is more of a commercial centre and has a small railway station, more commercial facilites, larger Hotels and Restaurants and a Co-Op supermarket. It is somewhat larger than Gimmelwald, but I don't think it's fair to compare them in the way Frommer's did. If you want larger and more touristy facilities and are prepared to pay for them, then Murren might be a better choice.

I notice in the web site linked above, that they have referred to Murren as "car-free". From my experience, that's not completely true as there are small SUV's and farm vehicles driving through the streets (small Daihatsu vehicles seem to be the preferred choice). In fact the trail from Gimmelwald to Murren is paved and just wide enough for a small vehicle, and it seems to be frequently used as a road.

I can't comment on thunderstorms in the summer, as I was there in September/October. I suspect many parts of Europe get thunderstorms in the summer. They don't bother me as we get lots of them here in the Okanagan in the summer time also.

As far as which Cinque Terre town to stay in, my thinking was also to base myself in one of the "end" towns so that I would be at one end of the trail or the other (although I was initially going to stay in Manarola). Consequently I ended up staying in Riomaggiore. Monterosso is much larger (having both an "old" and a "new" part of town, accesible through a small tunnel) and has more tourist facilities and a really nice sandy beach (which I noticed is also used as a "topless" beach at times). There are some nice Hotels there, but I'm sure these come with the usual charges for tourist Hotels. You'll have to decide which balance of cost vs. comfort you're willing to pay for. When I return there (hopefully next year), I'll again be staying in Riomaggiore.

One final point. You mentioned Frommer's in your post. You might want to also check out some other Guide books (if you haven't already), just to get a more balanced view of the different areas. Everyone here seems to have their choices for books (Lonely Planet, Let's Go, Frommer's, etc.), but I use the Rick Steves books quite extensively, as his travel philosophy fits well with the way I like to travel.

Good luck and happy travels!!!

[pointofnoreturn]

eagle said:

You mentioned Frommer's in your post. You might want to also check out some other Guide books (if you haven't already), just to get a more balanced view of the different areas. Everyone here seems to have their choices for books (Lonely Planet, Let's Go, Frommer's, etc.), but I use the Rick Steves books quite extensively, as his travel philosophy fits well with the way I like to travel.

Rick Steves = God of travel books. I enjoy his books and he gives great information on what to do in each city and gives very nice summaries of tours, etc of famous places.

Let's Go = I like this book in terms of the listings.

Lonely Planet = eh. I find it WAY bulky. I prefer the above over this.

[madamtrashheap]

lebsam11 said:

first of all what is a gondola? i thought those were the boats in venice?

I've always been amused at the first response of people when they hear the word "gondola" - so I did a little research a few years ago. Both are correct (sometime gondola car is used to describe the small cable car "pods"), but when describing the Venetian boat it derives from the Venetian dialect meaning "rocker" or the curvature on the bottom of the craft (as opposed to the dude with the guitar and frizzy hair! ). I know, I know, had far too much time on my hands, but I like to call it a healthy curiosity. ;D

Right, as for the other bits: Eagle's suggestion of going to Cinque Terre via Ventimiglia is a good one, wasn't sure if it was an advantage time-wise.

Cinque Terre: I stayed in Riomaggiore last year and liked the fact that it was small enough to wander around and even got to know some of the locals in the week I spent there. But next time I'll probably stay in Vernazza or Manarola, just for something different. I found Monterosso a little too "flat" (n geography and atmosphere) compared to the others. I understand your theory of being at one end or the other of the train line, so if you keep to that I concur with Eagle and would stay in Riomaggiore.

As for thunderstorms in the Swiss mountains in Summer - yes, but more towards the end of Summer/early Autumn. And as Eagle pointed out, there are thunderstorms across Europe in the Summer at different times. I've always found the most to be around Spetember/October, especially around the Mediterranean. It's not something I'd let turn you off going there.

Guidebooks: always a hard one. Go with those suggested by Eagle and pointofnoreturn (PONR) for starters as they will cover the bulk of what you want to see. Lonely Planet, whilst bulky, are great for in depth country histories and a good overview of the sights, etc, but they can miss a few of the "hidden treasures" that the others pick up. I'm a big fan of Time Out guides and Eyewitness Guides, but they deal more with cities or one country rather than all of Europe so might not be suitable for your first time. Use them more for specific trips to a particular city/region.

How did you go with the airline/flight path suggestions from PONR?

[herrbert]

Most of the times thunderstorms in the Alps, will occur at the end of the day, and I have to admit that I love to watch this from a balcony. When it's dark, and seing the silloutes of the mountains gives a great view. Sometimes you will hear stories of landslildes, but they are very rare, and usually occur on spots with a lot of skiing facilities (where they have cut the tries, to make a piste).

If you are thinking to go hiking in the mountains, then make sure to apply to a couple of rules. Always keep an eye on the weather, and when you are in doubt ask a local. They can normally tell what will happen. Always bring a raincoat (or a poncho) and always take food and water with you. (just in case, you have to shelter for a while). last rule is that when you are making photographs, make sure that you stand still.

P.S. I love my Lonely planet books, although they are heavy (for sure, when travelling more countries/cities) I wouldn't like to miss them on the road.