Need help with my Itinerary!!

[chelsealynn]

Hey Everyone. So I'm trying to get a basic plan for my backpacking trip to Europe. I know I want to go to Europe in April but probably not till 2008. I'm just trying to plan so I can get an idea of what it is going to cost. I want to go for approx. 60-90 days.
I have sooo many places I want to go. I see it as this may be my only chance to travel Europe so I want to go to as many places as I can. So these are the places I want to go:

I know that I am going to start off in London, England but have not determined anything other than that. I'm still trying to get my list of places to go down!!

Dublin, Ireland
Brussels, Belgium
Amsterdam
Paris, France
Lisbon, Portugal
Madrid, Spain
Bacelona, Spain
Florence, Italy
Rome, Italy
Munich, Germany
Berlin, Germany
Athens, Greece
Istanbul, Turkey
Budapest, Hungary
Slovakia (haven't decided where there yet)
Austria
Prague, Czech republic
Poland
Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Moscow, Russia
Switzerland

I really want to go to Germany and spend some time there. I am really interested in WW2 sites. I want to go to some of the old Concentration Camps, going to these places is really important to me, I am very interested in it and trying to understand what ppl went through. I will be mainly travelling by train and maybe a few cheap flights. I know I wont be able to get to all these places in 60-90 days but would like opinions on places that are must sees and towns that I should definately go to. I have never been to Europe and really want to explore the different cultures. I'll be staying in hostels.

I am also curious about moving to somewhere in Europe for a year and working there. I'm looking into that but it is very confusing. If anyone has any suggestions I would really appreciate it!! Thanks!!

Chelsea

[crystal]

If you want to visit concentration camps you could stay in Krakow in Poland. From here you can take a day trip to Auchwitz (sp). You can reach Krakow by train from Prague so this would start to sit into a itinery and you would be in easy reach of Slovakia and the rest of Eastern Europe.

[herrbert]

Hi Chelsea,

The "must sees" are always open for debate, as the preferences of everybody is different. It's best you read a lot, to see if these place really have something to offer for you.

You write you like to see the different cultures, if that also means you like to see the historical sites, then be sure to visit places like Rome (and Pompeii), Athens and Vienna. (I like it that you placed Istanbul on your list as well)

I would also recommend to do some research on the south of Spain (as you are already in Madrid, it could be worth a trip further south to Sevilla, Cordoba and Granada). Here you can see the remains of three civilizations in one region (Christian, Muslim & Jewish History). In between Madrid and Lisbon is a smaller and more unknown place called Caceres, esp the Old town is worth a visit - if you take the train from Madrid to Lisbon, you will pass it !!). And while you are in Madrid be sure to take at least a day trip to Toledo, and Segovia when possible. (which if you read more posts on this website ... is more or less, my standard line in almost every post)

I also miss Venice on your list... You could go there for one day as a day trip, from Florence, but it's also possible to stay there for a night (or maybe two) most people will do the Italy-leg: Rome-Florence-Venice (or the other way round, depending on where you are going next). Other places that are popular amongst travelers, that you could consider while in Italy: the Amalfi Coast, Cinque Terra, Tuscany and way up North: Lake Como.

I see you have Switzerland and Austria on the list. If you want to go hiking in the mountains, there are plenty of options in Austria, but it is cheaper (in general) than Switzerland. Unless you have a special place in mind (like Gimmelwald), you could be alright, with only Austria.

The Scandinavian countries are beautiful but also very expensive, and therefor a lot of times overlooked by backpackers. But there are some possibilities. The country I liked most was Finland, which also get you in a possibility to visit Tallinn (Estonia) by boat from Helsinki.

I guess I am making it harder, instead of easier, sorry ...

The last tip I will give for now, is that is could be a good thing to write how many days you are planning to stay in every city. (general rule: 4-5 in a major city, 2-3 in other places), in this way you know how much you have to skip to get everything in you 60-90 days.

For some information on World War II sites, you can go to this website. It's main focus is on the invasion (D-day, Arnhem, Ardennes ect, but also as some links to other sites.
battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/d_day_sites.htm

For living in Europe there are some options, a friend of mine is doing it the other way round, she's leaving to Canada for half a year. She is using the WWOOF organization, this organization works all over the world, but it has to be your cup of tee. www.wwoof.org.

I don't know if it would be an option in your case, but sometimes it possible to get an exchange from College or University.

[chelsealynn]

Thanks so much. That was alot of useful information. I am feeling so overwhelmed by all this planning. There is so much to plan. I'm not leaving for the trip for a long time but really want to get a flexible itinerary so then I can plan how many days and how much I will need when I go there. My big fear is running out of money and getting stuck there! I like being organized.

[Eagle]

chelsealynn, welcome to the Boards! I have a few comments to add. My first impression when reading your Itinerary is that you have far too many places on the list, even for a 60-90 day trip. Although you feel this might be your "only chance" to travel Europe, you might find that there will be other opportunities; "assume you will return".

It would help to know where you're flying from? You'll notice from many of the other posts here, that "open jaw" flights are the preferred choice of many here (including me!).

Since this is your first trip to Europe, I'd highly recommend that you start your planning by reading the Rick Steves book "Europe Through The Back Door". This is an excellent "pre-read", and it covers a lot of important material. You could also check other Guidebooks to get ideas on places to tour (there are lots of posts here regarding everyone's favourite Guidebooks, so I won't expand on that point).

I'm also interested in WW-II history (and to a lesser extent, WW-I) and visited some enormously interesting sites in Normandy about a month ago, as well as Dachau (close to Munich) which is not quite as "intense" as visiting Auschwitz. Which types of sites are you most interested in? Let us know and I'm sure the group here can offer some good suggestions.

A few "IMHO" comments and questions on each of the destinations you listed:

London - how many days do you plan on staying there? Are you planning to visit anywhere else in the U.K.? If you have time, York and Bath are both awesome!
Dublin - should be possible if you're starting in England
Amsterdam
Paris - plan at least 4 and preferably 5 days, as there's lots to see! (What do you want to see and do in Paris?).
Lisbon
Madrid - Seville and Granada are also popular choices, and if you're down in that area, a short trip to Gibraltar and Tangier (Morocco) should be possible.
Barcelona
Florence - good choice! I loved Florence, and can't wait to go back! Spend at least 3 days (I can recommend a good restaurant).
Rome - as with Paris, plan at least 5 days. There's LOTS to see! I can recommend a good Hostel (will have to post a review one of these days.
Munich - another interesting city, especially during OctoberFest! 3 days is good, especially if you want to tour Dachau and the Castles (Neuschwanstein).
Berlin
Athens - given the distances and travel times, my preference would be to leave this for a future trip.
Istanbul - leave for a future trip.
Budapest
Slovakia
Austria - where do you want to go? Vienna and Salzburg are good choices, but if you have time, Hallstatt and the Salzkammergut are beautiful.
Prague - in the Czech Republic, Cesky Krumlov is another popular destination.
Poland - are you only interested in Krakow, or other locations as well?
Denmark - leave for a future trip (as Herrbert mentioned, they can be very expensive!)
Norway - leave for a future trip
Sweden - leave for a future trip
Moscow, Russia - you didn't indicate your country of residence, but I'd definitely leave that for another trip! In addition to needing a Visa and in "invitation" to visit the country (often provided by Hotels I believe), Moscow is one of THE most expensive cities on earth! It's also a considerable distance from most of your other stops, so transportation and time might be an issue.
Switzerland - where do you want to visit? I was in the Berner Oberland recently and stayed in Gimmelwald. It was one of my favourite places, without a doubt! I'll leave comments on the major cities (Bern, Zurich, etc.) to some of the others. If you want to see what it looks like, have a look at www.gimmelwald.ch (the Mountain Hostel is a very popular choice!).

Again as Herrbert mentioned, a couple of other places you might want to consider adding to your list:

- Lago di Como: very quiet and relaxing, a good place for a "rest stop" - I stayed in Varenna, which is about an hour north of Milano.
- Cinque Terre: this is an awesome place to spend a few days! Definitely another one of my favourites!!! Have a look at www.cinqueterreonline.com/index.html or www.cinqueterre.it/en/index.asp for further information (BTW, I stayed in Riomaggiore and will stay there again).
- Tuscany (Siena, Lucca or ?)
- Umbria (Orvieto or ?)
- Amalfi coast (Positano, Sorrento or ?)

Regarding working somewhere in Europe, again your country of residence might have a bearing on this. One of our members posted a note here recently on opportunities to work in Italy - I believe it's in the Living Room section? If you're from a Commonwealth country, you might be able to take advantage of the WHV program?

Hope these comments are of some help. Good luck with your planning!

[chelsealynn]

eagle, thank you so much for this information. It has definately helped me cut some places that I wanted to go to. I searched Riomaggiore in google and wow is it ever beautiful, I found some nice bed and breakfasts there that would be beautiful to stay in. I am definately going to add that to my plans!
In Florence you said you could recommend a good restaurant, what is it called?

Thanks so much for all the info and tips! About a month ago I bought the book Frommers Europe from $85 a day. Would say that the the Rick Steves book "Europe Through The Back Door" is better? I was looking at that book too but purchased the Frommers instead. I appreciate all your helpful tips!!

[pointofnoreturn]

chelsealynn said:

Thanks so much for all the info and tips! About a month ago I bought the book Frommers Europe from $85 a day. Would say that the the Rick Steves book "Europe Through The Back Door" is better? I was looking at that book too but purchased the Frommers instead. I appreciate all your helpful tips!!

OMG, Rick's Steve Europe through the Backdoor is the Holy Bible when it comes to pre-planning! I love that book and it definitely gave me an idea of how to prepare my trip. It's not so much about what's in each city (though there is a small section in the back containing info on select cities). It talks about what to do about money, flights, booking online, food, customs, etc.

Definitely get that and you won't regret it. Personally, I find Frommer's to be really dry. It's too cluttered in my opinion.

I forgot.... I agree about open-jaw. I am flying open-jaw from Montreal-Paris then London-Toronto. You should check out Zoom Airlines. They're a Canadian charter airline that flies from Canada to Europe and they allow you to have different flights for the same price. For example, if you tried Vancouver-London, Paris-Vancouver on Air Canada, it'd be SO expensive but on Zoom, it'd be fairly cheap so I am flying for 679 dollars CAD total including taxes and everything for my own trip.

I check flyzoom.ca and Vancouver indeed flies to the London Gatwick airport and on return, only London, Paris, Belfast, Cardiff, Glasgow and Manchester.

You might want to consider starting in London and ending in Paris, therefore having a circular route (go from Spain to France in the last stage of your trip).

[Eagle]

chelsealynn, to clarify a few points mentioned in my previous post.

I agree with pointofnoreturn - ETBD is more of a "pre-reading reference" to educate North Americans on such things as European train travel, currency, customs, language issues, etc. It's not so much for researching various cities, although as mentioned there are a few suggestions listed in the back. If you want more detailed information in countries and cities, the RS country or city books have all the details. These provide information on transportation, lodgings, restuarants, costs for admission to Museums, etc. - virtually a wealth of information! The RS books seem to be designed in such a way that if a traveller wants a greater amount of detail, then it's necessary to buy both the city and country versions of the books (ie: Italy plus Rome or Florence or whatever). I suppose this is good marketing, as the intent is to sell Guidebooks. I've found so far that the country Guidebooks usually provide me with enough detail for trip planning. Again, check the Boards to get some idea of the favourite Guidebooks of our members here.

The restaurant I was referring to is called "Il Grillo Parlante", and is located at via Guelfa, 90r, 50129 Firenze, Phone [phone]. From what I remember, they don't open until 18:00 or 19:00 and closed Sundays (get used to using 24-hour time, as that's what is used on the trains). Some people seemed to think it was in a bit of a "dodgy" part of town, but I never had any problems at all. There are lots of great restaurants in Florence, but I found the smaller, "homey" atmosphere" to be wonderful. There's one review at www.slowtrav.com/Italy/restaurants/review.asp?n=il+grillo+parlante&s=san+lorenzo . It's reasonably close to Firenze S.M.N. station - check the map at www.google.ca/maps?hl=en&lr=&q=trattoria+il+grillo+parlante&near=Firenze,+Italy&sa=X&oi=local&ct=title (you will probably have to cut & paste the URL, the link here doesn't seem to work?). I could post a photo if anyone is interested (BTW, have you checked the photo board here?).

I also agree with pointofnoreturn that Zoom is a good flight option for those living in western Canada. I flew from Paris to Vancouver via Zoom and the flight was great. One point though, I found it quite beneficial to pay for the "premium" service, as the legroom was much better (the "free" Okanagan Wines were nice too!). It was money well spent IMHO. I used Air Transat for the Vancouver to Frankfurt portion of my "open jaw" trip. Keep in mind that the flight schedules change at different times of the year; check the respective web sites for up-to-date information.

Have fun with your planning!