first time europe - need help with itinery

[lynx]

Dear forum users,

I need some advice with the itinerary for my trip. This is my first time and hoping that I am going about the right way. I am setting off from UK and below is the planned route that I wish to take.

Fr - Paris (3) - includes a day trip to versailles
Fr - Chamonix (2)
Switz - Geneva(2)
Fr - Lyon(1)
Fr - Nice(2)
It - Venice (3)
It - Florence
It - Rome (including Pisa) - (3)
It - Naples (including Capri) - (2)
It - Bari -> Patras
Gr - Patras -> Delphi -> Athens

Please advise if I have am taking too long or too short in the places mentioned above.

Now I am stuck at this point because all the journeys so far have been by train. And I want to try and get to Vienna (Austria). However, I also want to see some Central Europe but not sure how to do this without too much travelling.

I wanted to do:

Athens -> Istanbul (2)(via Thessaloniki) - (cannot find ferry companies to go from Athens to Istanbul)

-> Sofia -> Belgrade -> Budapest -> Vienna


But to travel this by train would be too much as I need to spend some time in Austria,Switzerland and Germany. However I am concerned about the time spent on train travelling. I have upto 2 months to do this and so far have used just under a month.


Would appreciate on any advice from your experience and routes that you have taken.


Thanks

[me]

the shorter distances would work well with surface transport. but, for longer legs, i'd suggest flights.

as i don't see low cost flights from Athens to Istanbul, it might be better to have another destination between them.

a way to plan this is to go to www.whichbudget.com and look where there are flights from Athens, and where there are flights to Istanbul. of those options, pick places you want to see anyway.

ferries, especially, take a long time. would you want to spend your vacation time on a boat?

[herrbert]

I would consider taking more time for almost every city (and as you say you have more than enough time left.)

Paris (4 or 5)
Chamonix (2, but not sure on this one)
Geneva (2)
Lyon (2)
Nice (3)
Venice (2 or 3)
Florence (3 or 4)(daytrip to Pisa, from Florence is better)
Rome (5)
Naples (not the best city to visit, at the moment, would you consider the Amalfi Coast? (2-3 days)

Greece. The best way to get there is to fly. For historical reasons I can understand the time you want to spend in Patras and Delphi. Would this be doable as a daytrip from Athens? If so I would stay 3 or 4 days in Athens.

As you are already in Greece, why not visit one (or more) of the Isles?

As David already wrote, there is not a good connection between Athens and Istanbul. It can be time saving to fly to Vienna, and then back to Istanbul. Or if you want to stay in that area, to find connecting flights in Düsseldorf, or Cologne/Bonn. I know it looks a bit weird, but there are some german budgetairlines flying from those two airports, that fly to both cities. (check LTU, Germanwings, AirBerlin)

The trainrides: Athens - Sofia, Sofia - Belgrad, and Belgrad to Budapest, can all be done on a nighttrain. from there on everything is pretty much straight forward to Vienna. Check www.bahn.de for details.

[lynx]

Thank you so much for your advice.

Is there any cheap airline flights from Athens to Venice, as this may be my other option and skipping Istanbul altogther.

If I do decide to go that up and up to Sophia -> Belgrade etc.. are the night trains safe? How about the timetable for these trains as I've read that they are not always as reliable? Would love to hear any comments on this as well as your experiences?

Thank you again.

[herrbert]

I know that Alpi Eagles is flying Athens - Venice, check www.alpieagles.com/?lang=EN, Air One also flies this route: www.flyairone.it/en/

I can't sleep on those trains, so I don't travel with them, but others will tell you their stories.

[lynx]

Dear users,

I have done a revised itinerary, and am skipping central europe altogther and instead doing Barcelona and the Greek Islands

I have not yet done a detailed research on all the places that I would like to see and hence would be grateful for advice on how long I need to spend at each place.

So, here goes:

France:
Paris (4)
Lyon (1)

Spain
Barcelona (3-4?)

France:
Nice -(with Monaco,Cannes etc..) (2-3?)

Italy:
Florence(2-3?)
Rome (4)
Naples(2-3?)
Bari (ferry to get to Athens)

Greece:
Athens(3)
Greek Islands (including Naxos and Santorini (3-4))

Italy: (flight from Athens)
Venice (3?)

Austria:

Vienna (2-3?)
Salzkammergut(2-3)?

Germany

Munich (2-3)?

Austria

Tyrol (Innsbruck) (1-2)

Switzerland:

Zurich (1-2)
St. Mortiz -> Zermatt (via Glacier Express)
Stay in Zermatt for a 1 day or 2 (and seeing Matterhorn)
interlaken (not sure if needed as going to Tyrol)

Lake Geneva (1-2?)

France:
Chamonix (1-2?)

I have upto 2 months to and try and do this, but not sure if this is feasible.

Appreciate on any advice given.

Thanks.

[madamtrashheap]

Lynx, was going to suggest adjusting the direction at the start of your trip just slightly, but you've already done that by including other countries - so I won't! ;D What I will do, however, is comment that you do seem to be criss-crossing Europe a little and going all the way to Spain for just Barcelona (especially considering the train ride back up to Nice is 12hours long and not a night train) seems like you could include at least Madrid.

Do you absolutely have to go to Nice? If it's a yes, and you can't spend more time in Spain, then I'd suggest skipping Spain altogether (sorry Herrbert!) and saving it for another time. That way you can travel through the French destinations and on to Italy without too much time on trains. Otherwise, if you can find time to go to more places in Spain, there are flights from Madrid/Barcelona to Swiss detinations (Geneva, Basel, etc) that would work if you leave out Nice. This would also mean altering your route, but that's not too difficult.

Here are a few other comments on certain sections of your trip:

Italy:
Florence(2-3?) at least 3 full days
Rome (4) - depending on your interests you might need 5.
Naples(2-3?) - is there anything in Naples that particularly interests you, or is it just for Pompei, Herculaneum, etc? If so, either do Pompei as a full day trip from Rome or stay in Sorrento/Positano and include some time on Capri
Bari (ferry to get to Athens) - the ferry leaves around 8pm and takes around 16 hours to Patras (then you could take the bus to Athens over either Delphi or Corinth). Alternatively, take the train back up to Rome from Naples/Sorrento (2hrs30) and fly Rome to Athens as there are cheap flights to be found on this route.

Greece:
Athens(3) good
Greek Islands (including Naxos and Santorini (3-4)) you might like to allow 3 on Santorini and 2 on Naxos

Italy: (flight from Athens)
Venice (3?) 2-3 days is fine here. You could even include a trip over to Verona if it interests you and you spend 3 days in Venice (ie you'll have enought time for Venice and Verona)

Austria:
Vienna (2-3?) I'd suggest around 3-4 days here, so much to see and experience
Salzkammergut(2-3)? Unless you're using this as a base, I'd suggest staying in Salzburg and doing a day trip here, it's worth the trip. From here you could go to the Tirol/Innsbruck as they are closer to each other (Salzkammergut, Salzburg, Innsbruck) than to Vienna.

Germany
Munich (2-3)? 3 is good, allows time to visit places like Dachau, the Castles and even the monastery at Andechs.
Austria
Tyrol (Innsbruck) (1-2) see above, but number of days is fine. Or you could go Salzburg - Munich - Innsbruck then on to Switzerland as that works too.

Switzerland:
Zurich (1-2) Unless you have a friends here, I'd skip it and use the time elsewhere in Switzerland.
St. Mortiz -> Zermatt (via Glacier Express) very cool!
Stay in Zermatt for a 1 day or 2 (and seeing Matterhorn) definitely
interlaken (not sure if needed as going to Tyrol) - you can never have too many mountains! Can I suggest changing the order you visit these places? Grab a map, a train route and perhaps look at doing St Moritz - Luzern - Interlaken - Zermatt - Chamonix - Geneva. Check train routes, but this should work.

Lake Geneva (1-2?) where on the lake? Geneva is OK, but places like Lausanne, Gyron, etc offer prettier towns and places of interest.

France:
Chamonix (1-2?) 2 is good as it allows a day to go up and down the mountain (see previous post about Aiguille du Midi). then continue back to Geneva through Martigny.

Where to after Chamonix?

[herrbert]

The problem at the moment is that there is no connection between Barcelona and Nice/Marseille that works out. (the only option is a very long trainride).

But you can access Barcelona very easy from almost every european country. Every budget Airline, seems to have flights to Either Barcelona of Gerona. So there is not really a reason do drop Barcelona, but it just doesn't work in combination with Nice/Marseille.

So maybe after Charmonix to Geneva for a flight to Barcelona (EasyJet or ClickAir)?

[lynx]

Hello again,

Thank you for both of your comments above. Much appreciated and hopefully I should be nearly there with this itinerary!.

Anyway, I've taken advice from above and adjusted my route accordingly.

Here goes:

France
Paris (4)
Lyon (1)

Spain
Barcelona (3-4?)
Madrid (3-4?)

Italy

Rome(4-5) (flight from Madrid)
Florence(3)
Sorrento/Positano(2-3) - (Capri)
Bari (ferry to get to Athens)

Greece:
Athens(3)
Greek Islands (including Naxos(2) and Santorini(3))

Italy:
Venice(2-3)
Verona(daytrip)

Austria

Vienna(possibly 4)
Salzburg(3-4) - including a daytrip to Wolfgangsee
Tyrol(Innsbruck) (1-2) - not sure how many days

Germany

Munich(3) - including castles around


Switzerland

Zurich (1)
Lucerne (1-2?)
Interlaken (2?)
Zermatt (1?)
Martigny(1?) <->Chamonix(2-3)

(from Martigny) to Lake Geneva (2?)(Lausanne,Gryon) ->
fly back to London

Please feel free to make comments on above. I've left out as you notice Nice and instead opted for Madrid.


Thanks again

[herrbert]

Choosing Madrid over Nice , is always a good thing. (sorry I am biast ).

Madrid, check out a daytrip to at least Toledo (it's a must, and you will have time for that). Trains will take you from Atocha Station, just south of the center of Madrid to Toledo in 30 minutes. The old town is a beautiful place to see. You can take the escalator on the way up and down.

(If you make the trip to Madrid by plane, you can take the metro at Terminal 2 of Barajas Airport, buy yourself a 10-trip card, they work out, the cheapest in the end)

If 4 is possible, than do take 4 days in Vienna. There is so much to see, over there. I've been there 3 times, for 4 or 5 days and always came back with the idea, that I could see more. To see Schönbrunn Palace, with all the gardens and the Gloriette with take a some hours, and on a beautiful day it is a great place to have a stroll through the park.

For the Salzburg region, I would like to suggest Eisriesenwelt in Werfen it's about 45 minutes by train to get there, and you can take a bus + gondola to Eisriesenwelt. www.eisriesenwelt.at/ (be sure to bring some warm clothing, because inside the cave it is cold ...)

2 days in Innsbruck will be find, you can use one to see the city, and one to go up the Hafelekar, to see the city from above, and to do some hiking (for a glimpse how that looks, take a look in the photogallery)

You have a lot of 1 and 2 day stops in Switzerland, is that practical?

[lynx]

Thanks herrbert for your advice. Very useful indeed (especially the ice cave in Austria!). With your comments, regarding the number of nights in Switzerland, I've come up with the following:

Opted for Bern(1-2) rather than Zurich. Would appreciate, if any other place would be worth while than Bern.

Lucerne (1)

Interlaken (3). This includes Jungfraujoch,Stechelberg,Schilthorn and some activities.

Much to see and do here, but most of the above, I belive can be done very quickly. Please let me know on this part as would be really appreciated!

Zermatt (1-2) - including cable car (..never enough!)

If I get time, I would like to see Lake Geneva for about 2 days which includes Lausanne,Montreux and Gyron.

Would appreciate any suggestions for the above.

Many thanks

[herrbert]

I am not that familiar with Switzerland (I prefer Austria - moneywise, anyway). My main worry was that you would be checking out - travel - see something fast - sleep, and do that 4 of 5 days in a row.

A lot of people here, will prefer Gimmelwald above any other place in Switzerland. I still need to check out that place. Some people also love the Swiss cities, and others don't get were all the fuzz is about. I don't think they are that special, and would spend my days in the mountains instead of Bern or Zürich, but that is my opinion.

[lynx]

Thanks again for your comments. Itinerary for Austria and Switzerland are causing problems, only because I want to do so much sightseeing but just not having enough time for it!

I have changed it again and would welcome your advice on this:

Vienna: 4 days
Salzburg(3-4) - including a daytrip to Halmatt + caves

Munich 3 days as covering castles as well.

Tyrol(Innsbruck) (2)

If I am missing anything quite exceptional (or what I could forgo), then please let me know.

Now into Switzerland:

Lucerne (2)
Interlaken (2-3)- This includes Jungfraujoch,Stechelberg,Schilthorn,Gimmelwald and some activities.

Zermatt (2) - mainly for matterhorn

A morning ride to Martigny is what I'm planning for and then straight to Chamonix.

Martigny(0) <->Chamonix(2-3). The ride is purely for the scenery

(from Martigny(hopefully 0) to Lake Geneva (2)(including Lausanne,Gryon) ->fly back to UK.

Again, would appreciate any comments for the above.

I have skipped Munich and Bern altogether mainly for the sceneries and would have seen enough cities by now!

Thanks

[madamtrashheap]

Was going to suggest 1 day in Bern and 2 in Luzern (both worth a visit) then on to Interlaken, etc. but you've changed it again, so I'll see if I can keep up!

You're covering a lot of Switzerland (can never have too much chocolate-box scenery! ;D), but I'm confused on your comment about ditching Munich as I still see it in there (and IMHO you should leave it in). Also, it this the order you'll travel in? In fact, once you've finished tweaking, can you post the full itinerary again just to make sure we're not missing anything?

For the Austria/Germany/Switzerland bit, it looks good and the days you have are pretty spot on too. The only suggestions I have would be to look at basing yourself further into the mountains than Interlaken - even in Lauterbrunnen if you want to access the other places from there rather than further up in Gimmelwald. All the places you've listed are scattered around where I call "The Valley" (aka Lauterbrunnen) and within easier reach than from Intelaken (ie they are closer).

Also, from Chamonix you could have gone up and over into Italy (there are a few recent posts on this) and then skipped over to Nice if that was still included, but I'm not sure that this fits into your itinerary, or you could do it from Geneva if you we're flying out from there (hence asking for your latest full itinerary). At any rate, the trip to Zermatt, Martigny and Chamonix is worth the ride - then you get to go up Aiguille du Midi to boot!