W. Europe - First Trip - Multi-Month Itinerary

[codemonkeyken]

Hello everyone,

I am planning a multi-month trip for my wife and me. We are going to the countries listed in the itinerary below. We plan on leaving just after Labour Day in September.

However, because we both have roots in Italy we want to spend the majority of our time there, traversing the countryside and seeing relatives. I have devised the itinerary to end in Italy where we want to basically stay until the money runs out. However, I am not sure if ending there is wise or not. We will go to Greece from Italy but make our way home from there.

So, I am looking for suggestions on this itinerary. I am posting the number of days for each city in brackets when I have them, but otherwise no numbers means we are still in the planning stages. Please tell us if the number of days for the cities we have chosen are suitable or suggest some for where there are none. If you have suggestions for other cities to visit then I would love to hear them as well!

Thanks, I am looking forward to your posts.
Ken

Toronto to London

England:
London (5)
Bath (1)
Salisbury(1 ?)
York(1)
Liverpool(2)

Belgium:
Brugges(2)
Antwerp(1 ?)
Ypres(1)
Brussels(1 ?)

Netherlands:
Amsterdam (2 ?)

Germany:
Berlin(4-5)
Munich(2)
Hamburg

Czech Republic:
Prague

Austria:
Vienna

Switzerland:
Interlaken(2)
Grimmelwald(2)
Geneva
Zurich

France:
Paris(4-5)
Nice/Cannes/Monaco

Spain:
Barcelona
Madrid
Sevilla
Alicante or Valencia

Portugal:
Lisbon
Porto
Lagos

Italy:
Rome(7)
Milan(2)
Turin(2)
Venice(2)
Florence(3)
Sienna(2)
Naples(3)
Cinque Terre(3)
Sicily(3)

Greece:
Athens
Mykonos

London to Toronto

[madamtrashheap]

codemonkeyken, welcome back to the Boards! You've obviously been doing your research since your last post!

To help you further, a point about ending in Italy and Greece is that it will be warmer down there than the north by the time you reach the end of your trip, but Mykonos will be all but closed by the end of September (it's a Summer destination) and you'll have trouble locating accommodation. Plus the ferries often get cancelled due to the Autumn storms. Athens is "open" all year round, so no issue there. Perhaps you could shift the Greece portion of your trip closer to the front and still end in Italy. There are flights to/from Athens from many of the major cities you'll be in at the beginning of your trip, so you could throw it in the middle if you still want to visit Mykonos (or Santorini would be another good choice, but same issues apply re: accom.). In fact, read through my notes but you will have to change the order of the cities you visit in some secitons to allow for ease of travel and an itinerary that flows a little more logically.

Some other suggestions regarding time in places:
England:
London (5) - if you keep 5 days, one could be spend doing a day trip to Bath and Stonehenge (Salisbury), which would allow the 2 days you've allocated to perhaps go towards Edinburgh.
Bath (1) - see above
Salisbury(1 ?) - see above
York(1) - 2hrs by train from London so would allow afternoon and morning of exploring
Edinburgh (2) - lots to see and could even take a day trip to Loch Ness/Highlands (long day).
Liverpool(2) - if you're into the Beatles and Liverpool FC then you can spend the two days fully exploring everything about them (there's a new Beatles Tour now too that's good fun).
Here is the National Rail site so you can check timetables: www.nationalrail.co.uk/

Belgium:
Brugges(2) - add extra days according to info below
Antwerp(1 ?) - day trip from Brugge perhaps
Ypres(1) - accessible from Bruges/Brugge (so add extra day there if you don't want to stay in Ypres) for a full day trip to the Battlefields, well worth it.
Brussels(1 ?) - I really enjoy Brussels, just depends on what you want to see. Maybe 1 night there will be good as it's not far from Brugge and you could stop there before continuing to Amsterdam

Netherlands:
Amsterdam (2 ?) - 2 days is perfect for exploring the city sights

Germany:
Berlin(4-5) - are you flying from Amsterdam? ( www.transavia.com ) 4 days would be perfect, 5 would allow for day trips to places like Sachenhausen (concentration camp), Pfaueninsel (better in Summer, but will be pretty in Autum), although having said that, you could still fit this in over 4 days.
Munich(2) - check what date you'll be there as it may coincide with Oktoberfst, in which case you'll have to secure accommodation now. 3 days would allow for exploring the castles (Neuschwanstein, etc).
Hamburg - not necessary, but still a good stop if you want to take the train from Amsterdam for a night as you could do a habour cruise in the afternoon then explore the city at night.
You might like to change the city order to allow Berlin-Prague-Vienna - Munich...

Czech Republic:
Prague - 3 full days would be best, 4 will allow for greater exploring time; you could still fit a day trip to Kutna Hora in too. And look at taking the train from Berlin to Prague with a stop for a few hours in Dresden. Another place to look at is Cesky Krumlov for a day, but it depends on the time you have to spare.

Austria:
Vienna - 3-4 full days, depending on your interests. There is so much to see/do/eat in Vienna!
Would you consider Innsbruck or Salzburg as well?

Switzerland:
Interlaken(2) - unless you're going to do some adventure sports here (weather and season dependant), I'd suggest a day in Luzern (so pretty) and then straight to Gimmelwald (see below)
Grimmelwald(2) - I think you mean "Gimmelwald", or did you mean "Grindelwald"? Gimmelwald would be a great choice as it's right in the heart of the mountains and is breathtaking. 2-3 days here would be perfect.
Geneva - unless you really want to visit Geneva town, look at places like Gyron (more mountains!) for 2 days. Otherwise Geneva for 1 day would be fine.
Zurich - again, unless you're visiting friends, I'd use the time to go somewhere else (even Bern/Berne would be a better choice, but again you've already got the best of the scenery above so it's not strictly necessary)

France:
Paris(4-5) - 5 days would be good as you could include a day out at Versailles and really explore Paris itself in this time.
Nice/Cannes/Monaco - you have to consider the time of year (beach won't be worth it by Autumn) and the direction you travel as transport in/out of here is an issue in terms of trains (long journey if you want to go to Spain after here). 2 days, which includes a trip up to Monaco and down to Cannes in a day from Nice woudl be my recommendation if you want to keep these in your itinerary.

Spain: Herrbert & David are your experts here, but I'll start the discussion:
Barcelona - 3 full days
Madrid - 4 full days (incl. a day trip to Toledo)
Sevilla - 2 days
Alicante or Valencia - I prefer Valencia, but I'll let the others give their suggestions as there are other combinations of cities to look at.

Portugal: lia is the board expert on Portugal, Herrbert and David too.
Lisbon
Porto
Lagos

Italy:
Rome(7) - wow! Great amount of time and you'll really be able to explore the city and surrounds. As you've included Naples further down, can I suggest perhaps 5 days in Rome (7 is fine, just trying to find time for other places) as you'll be able to go to Pompei from Naples/Amalfi Coast and you can spend a day going to perhaps Hadrian's Villa or even Civita di Bagnoregio.
Milan(2) - I think 1 full day in Milan is enough (if at all), but again it's up to you and your interests. Don't forget to book a few days ahead for tickets to see The Last Supper. Maybe look at Lake Como instead.
Turin(2) - would choose Turin/Torino over Milan and 2 days will be plenty
Venice(2) - perfect number of days
Florence(3) - would suggest 4 days, but 3 full days is also Ok if you keep Siena in as a stop rather than as a day trip.
Sienna(2) - perfect number of days
Naples(3) - would suggest staying a little further south in Sorrento or Positano as you can access Naples for a day from there if you want to explore, plus you can also visit Pompei and Capri from either place very easily and that part of the coast is gorgeous.
Cinque Terre(3) - beware the Autumn storms if you plan on doing any hiking here! 3-4 days is just lovely here
Sicily(3) - IMHO 3 days barely lets you experience Sicily, but if you fly in to Catania (from Rome) you can at least explore the eastern side around Taormina and Siracusa, but if you can add an extra day for just those two places then do it, otherwise leave Sicily out until you can devote more time (2 weeks) to explore the whole island.

Greece:
Athens - 3 days
Mykonos - 3 days will allow a trip to Delos too.
Have you considered Santorini instead?

Look at the order in which you're travelling to each city and rework it from the above list to flow a little more logically. See what you come up with in the next draft and let us know. How many days exactly do you have to travel in?

[herrbert]

I think the Madam, already gave most points.

Just to add, some remarks.

Loch Ness ?? Good, if you like the stories, but if you enjoy nature, then head from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Loch Lomond. (As time would be really short, I don't want to advise Skye, but if you would have more time to add to Scotland, that would be the most beautiful bit.

For traveling to and from Spain, check Vueling Airlines: www.vueling.com/EN/index.php.

Also when you start planning, you will find that there only is a connection between Nice/Marseille, to Barcelona, by train. This is a very long ride, if possible, try to fit in Nice/Marseille in another way. You could also opt, to fly Marseille - Madrid. (and do Spain/Portugal in another (starting Madrid, ending in Barcelona, and then fly to Italy)

Personaly I would choose to go to Granada, instead of Alicante or Valencia. The Alhambra is a 'must-see' when you are in Spain. As you are already made it to Sevilla, you can do the last bit to Granada pretty easy. Flights are also available from at least Madrid and Barcelona. 2 days would be good to explore Granada. Toledo is a good daytrip from Madrid, but also consider Segovia.

check www.renfe.es for the timetable of the trains in Spain.

For the Portugeze cities, I would reckon 3 days for all of them. Would do. You could to Barcelona, and make a big Circle (clockwise) Barcelona - Valencia - (Granada) - Sevilla - Lagos - Lisbon - Porto - (Salamanca?) - Madrid.

Vienna, I would prefer 4 days, instead of 3. (are you considering a daytrip to Bratislava?)

[pointofnoreturn]

Just a few things:

• If you're planning to stay in Milan, please book a few months ahead for Last Supper tickets. I believe they open booking 2-3 months prior to the date you want to stay in. They sell out instantly so that should be a priority if you're interested in seeing that painting/
  
• Keep all the nights you indicated for the UK trips. Overnights in Bath and Salisbury would be nice and keep you refreshed. 5 nights in London is great because you can't always see everything so it'll give you enough time to cover most things.
  
• I would ditch Mykonos. Granted, it's a pretty island (just very touristy) but that's really about it. You should consider Santorini (fly from Athens with Aegean Airlines for 45 euros all in). I would actually ditch the french cities (besides Paris) and use them towards a 2nd island.

Might add more stuff later but that's good for now

[madamtrashheap]

pointofnoreturn said:

• If you're planning to stay in Milan, please book a few months ahead for Last Supper tickets. I believe they open booking 2-3 months prior to the date you want to stay in. They sell out instantly so that should be a priority if you're interested in seeing that painting/

That time of year isn't as bad as from May to August/early September when trying to get in to Santa Maria della Grazie, so booking ahead a few days (by few I mean at least 5) will be fine, but if you really want to be sure, then by all means book as far ahead as you like. Note: you can't exchange the ticket for another day as it's locked in (time and date). For details go to www.cenacolovinciano.it/html/eng/smgrazie.htm & bookings email [e-mail] or tel: [phone].

pointofnoreturn said:

[/li][li] I would ditch Mykonos. Granted, it's a pretty island (just very touristy) but that's really about it. You should consider Santorini (fly from Athens with Aegean Airlines for 45 euros all in). I would actually ditch the french cities (besides Paris) and use them towards a 2nd island.[/li][/ul] [/quote]
Remember, that time of year is turning quiet in Greece - I'm not kidding about things closing down! So I'd be more inclined to not skip the French cities and just keep Athens and an island this time around.

[codemonkeyken]

Thank you all for your insightful commentary. You have definitely given me lots to think about. I am working on a second draft of our itinerary and I will post it later his week.

Ken

[Eagle]

It's difficult to add anything to the suggestions from MTH and the others! I have a few comments though:

> U.K. - looks good, however I would add at least one day to York. It's one of my favourite cities! The Railway Museum can take the better part of a day to tour, and then there's the local walking tours, poking around the Shambles, etc.

> Germany - depending on your interests, at least one extra day in Munich would also be worthwhile, especially if you want to visit the Castles or Dachau.

> Switzerland - MTH already addressed the question I had, regarding the spelling of the name "Grimmelwald" (seemed like kind of a mix between Gimmelwald and Grindelwald?). They are quite different and distinctive communities and located in different valleys, so be sure which one you're going to be staying in. If Gimmelwald is your choice, be sure to check out their web site or a good Guide book regarding lodging choices. The Pensione in Gimmelwald closed at the end of October, and I'm not sure what their status is at the moment? However, there are lots of good B&B choices there as well as a great Hostel. If you want more "touristy" choices, Murren has lots of options and it's very close to Gimmelwald. The trip to the Schilthorn is a bit expensive, but worth the cost IMO.

> Italy - as some of the others have suggested, reducing the time in Milan might be a good idea (of course, this will depend on what you intended to see there?). I heartily agree with MTH that you might consider Lago di Como instead of, or in addition to Milan. It's only about an hour from Miilan by train and is a fantastic place to visit! For a wonderful "home base" area to explore the different communities on the lake, you might consider Varenna (there's also Bellagio, however it's a bit more "pricey).

You'll probably find that two days in Siena will go by fairly quickly. If you're travelling there from Florence, you might consider going via Coach rather than train, as the Bus stop is right in town rather than at the bottom of the hill (which is where the train station is).

Regarding the Cinque Terre, have you given any thought to which of the five towns you might want to stay in??? Also, if you intend to hike the trails you will need to obtain a C.T. card at one of the train stations. This has to be validated in the same way as a train ticket. One hint though, if you arrive late in the day it's a good idea to wait until the next morning to validate your C.T. card, as the "clock" starts running on this from the moment it's validated. There's no way you can access the trails without the card, as they have small booths set up at the entrance to each of the trails, and attendants WILL check to see if you have a valid card.

Also, looking at your proposed Itinerary you might want to structure your trip so that it ends in Rome. That way you can use "open jaw" flights, starting in London (should be easy and inexpensive from Toronto via Zoom or Air Transat) and ending in Rome (you might have to use Air Canada from there, as I believe Zoom & Air Transat are only accessible from Paris, Munich and Frankfurt).

One final point to mention. You stated that your trip would be a "multi-month trip". If this is longer than three months, you'll have to give some thought to the issue of the Schengen Visa.

We'll look forward to seeing the next draft of your Itinerary.

Cheers!!!

[pointofnoreturn]

Regarding the Last Supper painting, I'm going to be in Milan in May of this year so I tried to book tickets on March 7th when the May tickets were opened and they were sold out for my date already.

[madamtrashheap]

pointofnoreturn said:

Regarding the Last Supper painting, I'm going to be in Milan in May of this year so I tried to book tickets on March 7th when the May tickets were opened and they were sold out for my date already.

PONR that's not good news! The last time I booked tkts for there was in Oct 2005, so maybe something has changed since then (damn tour groups and their bulk bookings!), hence my suggestion of a few days out at that time of year. Did you end up getting a tkt at all? I was going to suggest emailing or calling them for info, but I'm guessing you've already done that. Will put my thinking cap on (and make a few calls ) to find out what the best approach is.

[pointofnoreturn]

Managed to score some tickets with a little extra help from a friend! May 12-20 is Cultural Week in Milan and the tickets are free so she got me 2 tickets although I do have to pay a 3 euro booking fee but still, saved plenty of euros!

I'm a happy girl now!

[crystal]

I have to agree with Eagle about York. One day just isn't enough. I would maybe suggest swapping the time in Liverpool and spending less time there to put onto York.

[me]

Hi, Ken!

have you given thought to visiting some smaller cities and some towns?

you are concentrating, with a few exceptions, on the biggest cities. Germany has lots of very interesting small towns. Czech Republic is more than just Prague. Austria offers so much more beyond vivacious Vienna. (Tyrolean alps are as beautiful as Swiss alps, yet much better priced!)

Italy is well covered, but i see you're going to 4 places in Belgium & just one in Austria.

to me, your plan seems a little out of kilter.

- d