First trip to Europe - 2 month itinerary

[lublue]

Hi, my two friends and I (22 year olds) are going to Western Europe this summer from May 27 to July 25. None of us have ever been, and I need some help with my itinerary.

Paris - 4 1/2 (including day trip to Versailles)
Loire Valley - 1
San Sebastian - 1
Madrid - 2
Valencia - 2
Barcelona - 2
Avignon - 1
Nice - 2
Interlaken - 2
Lucerne - 1
Liechtenstein - 1
Munich - 2
Vienna - 2
Salzburg - 2
Innsbruck - 1
Venice - 2
Verona - 1
Bologna - 1
Cinque Terre - 2
San Gimignano - 1
Siena - 2
Florence - 3
Assisi - 1
Rome - 3
Naples/Pompeii - 2
Amalfi Coast or Capri - 1
Athens - 2
Friend's house near Athens - 3
Mykonos - 2
Santorini - 2
Fly to Paris

Is this itinerary too packed for two months? Are there any cities that I am missing or any that are not worth visiting?

Another possibility would be to spend more time in Spain (traveling down to Seville and southern Spain) and skipping Munich and the cities in Austria. Would this be a better plan?

Thanks so much for all your help and advice!

[madamtrashheap]

Welcome to GFE lublue!

At a quick glance, you have a lot of 1 night stops in your itinerary, which you'll find not only annoying (packing and unpacking) but not super useful for sightseeing. I understand the need for some of them (Switzerland to Munich via Liechtenstein, for eg.) but you might be able to eliminate some of them by flying between certain cities.

A few questions before I continue with advice:
1. what are your interests?
2. do you have any "must-see" places that should stay in the itinerary?

I'd look at spending more time in a few places to make it worthwhile and perhaps your suggestion of sticking to Spain, Italy and Greece (throw a little of France in at the start) might work in better. Don't get me wrong, Germany, Switzerland and Austria are well worth visiting, but not in a rushed manner.

[lublue]

Madamtrashheap, haha, nice name

Thanks for the welcome!

We are definitely going to Greece because my friend has a house there, and we definitely want to visit Florence, Rome, Siena (we are going to stay there for the Palio festival), Cinque Terre, Paris, Barcelona, and Madrid. The other stops just seemed like popular spots and can be changed.

As far as my interests, I love history and being outdoors. I would like to see the famous paintings, sculptures, etc., but I don't like spending hours and hours in museums. I like architectural wonders, mountains, beaches, and good food. I will be backpacking and staying in hostels, and I would love to just walk around, explore the different cities, and experience the culture. Also, I would like to spend at least a couple days doing some adventures (canyoning, skydiving, hiking). And I want to go out and experience the nightlife as well. Any suggestions and advice would be great! Where have you visited? Favorite places?

[Eagle]

lublue, Welcome! I have a few comments to add to the usual excellent advice from MTH.

I completely agree with MTH in that you have too many one & two night stops, and while it might be feasible to arrange your trip this way, it's going to get VERY tiring in a big hurry! Some of the destinations you've listed are quite geographically distant from the others (ie: Spain, Greece), and I don't see much allowance for travel times in your present Itinerary. IMO it would be much more realistic to eliminate some of the destinations from this particular trip, and assume you will return.

In addition, part of your trip will be during the peak tourist season so this is another reason I believe that travel details and lodgings will have to be planned fairly efficiently. It's always prudent to allow for "unexpected delays", as it's just about a certainty these will occur (especially in Italy, LOL).

It would help if you could provide some idea of which cities are most important to you, and which ones could perhaps be eliminated? Also, where are you travelling from, and have you bought your airline tickets yet?

A few comments on some of the cities on your list:

- PARIS: IMO it would be a good idea to make this at least five days, especially if you're travelling from North America as you'll lose the first day due to flight times and time zone changes.

- INTERLAKEN: do you plan on staying just in Interlaken, or venturing out into the Berner Oberland, perhaps to Gimmelwald (a big favourite here!)? You might want to add a day or two there?

- LIECHTENSTEIN: is this essential? Might be a good one to eliminate?

- MUNICH: what are you planning to see while there? If you're planning on visiting Dachau or the Castles, at least three days would be a good idea.

- VERONA & BOLOGNA: could you elaborate on your reasons for these visits?

- CINQUE TERRE: you'll have to give some thought on which of the five towns you want to stay in? It might be an idea to book early, as I suspect it could be busy there at the time of year you'll be visiting.

- ROME: you might want to add a day or two there, as there's LOTS to see!

- NAPLES & POMPEII: if you added a couple of days to your Rome stop, you could see Pompeii as a day trip (albeit a very LONG day) from Rome. There are mixed opinions here on the Boards regarding Naples; it can be very "intense".

- TRAVEL: how were you planning to get from Italy to Greece? The Ferry from Brindisi is about a 20 hour trip, I believe so you'll have to allow for this. Also, were you planning to use a Rail pass? Be sure to budget for reservation fees and Couchette rentals, if you plan on using trains where these are applicable.

I usually travel using "open jaw" airline tickets for best efficiency (especially time efficiency!). I'm assuming from the way you've structured your Itinerary that you'll be both starting and ending your trip in Paris?

Hope this helps. Good luck with your planning!

[Eagle]

lublue, I just noticed your most recent reply. A few additional comments:

As you're going to be in Siena during the Palio, it would undoubtedly be a good idea to get some lodgings arranged SOON! Accomodations were even in short supply when I was there in September, and I encountered two young ladies that ended up sleeping on the street with a bottle of Wine, as there was nothing available (even the Convent was full!).

IMO it's a good idea to use a range of lodgings, not just Hostels. Don't rule out B&B's / Affitacamere or budget Hotels.

If you plan on visiting the two big Museums in Florence, the Uffizia or Accademia, reservations are a really GOOD idea. I believe you can book these on the net, however you MUST show up within the time window they provide you with. Also, in order to avoid standing in queues any longer than necessary, a Paris Museum Pass is almost essential (especially at that time of the year!).

For a "unique" adventure in the Berner Oberland, you might consider either a short or long Paraglide flight. The longer trip launches from the Schilthorn at the 10,000 foot level and the trip lasts about an hour. It's a bit "pricey" (about SF$300) however, so you might opt for the shorter trip. I can check my records and provide the name of the firm in Lauterbrunnen if you're interested.

I'll go wait for your next reply, and I'm sure MTH will have some fantastic advice, as usual.

Your trip is only a few months away - you must be getting anxious to leave!

Cheers!!!

[lublue]

Eagle,

Thanks for the advice. I have bought my flight in and out of Paris. I arrive in Paris at 1:00 on May 28 and am planning on staying there for the rest of that day plus four other days. Would you stay one more day?

We are going and staying in Interlaken because we want to do some adventure-type activities like canyoning, sky diving, and hiking. What is in Gimmelwald? Would it be a daytrip from Interlaken or is it better to spend the night there?

Liechtenstein is not essential.

Our original plan was to travel from Paris to Spain to southern France to Italy to Greece. But someone mentioned that they loved Munich and then I thought might as well go to Austria, but maybe I'm trying to pack in too much and should leave out Germany and Austria.

We want to spend the most time in Italy, which is why I included Verona and Bologna, but maybe they would just be day trips from Venice or Florence (or would you cut them out completely?)

I will definitely look into staying in Cinque Terre and extending my stay in Rome.

I had heard that Naples wasn't that great. What about staying in Sorrento and taking day trips to Pompeii, Amalfi Coast, Capri, etc.?

We are planning on taking the 20 hour ferry from Brindisi to Greece, and then I am getting a one-way flight from Athens to Paris because I didn't know about the open-jaw flights when I booked mine. We are also getting Eurail passes unless you think it would be cheaper to buy point-to-point tickets.

So, if we are set on going to Spain, would you cut out Austria, Germany, and Liechtenstein? What about Switzerland? Where have you traveled in Western Europe and what are your favorite places?

Thanks!

[lublue]

Eagle,

Yeah, I was just looking at the hostels in Siena today. It looks like the only one is about 2 km north of the center of Siena. Would you recommend booking a dorm at the hostel or spending a little more money and staying at a budget hotel in the center? I know the hostel is available but not sure about hotels in the center.

The paragliding adventure sounds really fun, and I am definitely willing to splurge on stuff like that. I would love the name of the firm you booked with. Thanks.

And thanks for the advice about the museum reservations and passes. I had no idea you had to get reservations to them.

[madamtrashheap]

lublue, I'm glad Eagle was around as he has some excellent suggestions for the Interlaken/Gimmelwald area and Italy as he was there just a few months ago. I'm familiar with the paragliding trip he recommended and it's worth it. And the point about accommodation in Siena during the Palio is also worth following up on. The hostel that you've mentioned that is 2km from the city centre will do if there are no others, but try to stay closer/in the city as it wil annoy you waiting for busses during that busy time (you could walk, but better to save your feet for Rome!). I hope Eagle or the others come up with a hostel/accommodation suggestion for you (I've only stayed in a villa near the city and had a car or done day trips from Florence).

Excellent that you have a friend to stay with in Athens. Had a thought about getting back to Paris from Greece - look at flying from one of the islands you're visiting directly to Paris (check Aegean Air or Olympic Airways, there might not be flights.), unless you want to catch up with your friend again. It will save sitting on a ferry. Also, look at flying from/to Athens at one point rather than all ferries - particularly the Brindisi-Igoumenitsa: you could fly from Rome to Athens instead - see below.


For Switzerland: Gimmelwald is gorgeous (as are the other towns in that whole valley!) so if you want to experience the mountains it's a good idea to stay in them for 2 nights.

Liechtenstein: if you keep Munich you could go Switzerland - Vaduz-Munich with an overnight stop in Vaduz if you really wanted (here's a post: pretravel.proboards1.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&n=1&thread=2941&page=1 ) but I suspect we're going to find that you won't fit Germany and Austria in this time around.

For Italy: you're on the right track thinking of possible day trips or stop-overs from the larger cities on your itinerary. We want to spend the most time in Italy, which is why I included Verona and Bologna, but maybe they would just be day trips from Venice or Florence (or would you cut them out completely?) I second Eagle's suggestions of CT and more time in Rome. Just for your reference, you can do day trips to the following places from these cities:
Florence: Pisa (half-day, or do on the way to/from Cinque Terre), San Gimignano (SITA public busses leave from Florence throughout the day)
Siena: Assisi (full day),
Venice: Verona, Bologna
Rome: Pompei, Naples
Sorrento (or Positano): Capri, Pompei, Naples

Naples is an interesting city with lots to see, but if you don't make it first time around don't stress. It's not the most safe place, but you shouldn't be scared to go there, just aware - check this site for other posts on Naples/Napoli). Sorrento or Positano further south on the Amalfi Coast are prettier places to stay in, and you could take the train back up to Naples to have a look around for a few hours if you wanted to.


Based on your interests, and moreover your timeframe, I would again suggest leaving out Germany and Austria (so much to see and do there -good for the next trip!) so your itinerary looked something like:

Paris
fast train (TGV) to Bern (5hrs-ish, get the direct trains, twice a day)
Bern train to Luzern (could stay a night in Luzern or continue to Interlaken; will be a longish day)
Luzern train to Interlaken
Interlaken
train to Gimmelwald
Gimmelwald
train to Zurich (check Helvetic or Click Air for flights Zurich-Barcelona) or Basel (check www.easyjet.com for Basel-Madrid flights)
then fly to Madrid/Barcelona time in Spain (Herrbert, David - chime in here! ;D)
fly to Venice from Barcelona, Madrid or wherever suits your itinerary(flights: Vueling and WindJet)
NOTE: up to you what direction you want to travel in through Italy; eg you could fly to Pisa and take the train to Cinque Terre (CT) - flights: clickair.com Barcelona-Pisa or Ryanair for Girona-Pisa)
(train travel within Italy)
Venice
train to CT
Cinque Terre
train to Florence with few hours in Pisa (luggage storage room at train station)
Florence
Siena (look for trains through Chiusi when traveling Siena-Sorrento, rather than back north to Florence, then grab the Eurostar Italy from Rome to Naples, then the Circumsuviana to Sorrento)
Sorrento
Rome
fly Rome to Athens (check Aegean Air)
Athens
Mykonos
Santorini (whatever order you prefer)
fly to Paris

It's very difficult to say the "best" or "favourite" places to go as these are very personal choices for all of us. We can tell you what we like about a place, but one person's idea of heaven is another person's idea of hell...with melting gelati! As this is you and your friends' first time to Europe, it's a good idea to go with the places you want to see, plus a few extra treats thrown in between the cities, and get a good feel for the region whilst still enjoying your travels.

Hope this gives you some more food for thought. Happy planning!

[herrbert]

As Lublue, has mentioned he wants to some of the famous works of art, he needs to get to Madrid, and see the Prado, and the Reina Sofia (home of Guernica, and other works by Picasso). Try to visit at least one of them on a sunday, until 14.30 entrance is free. (after 14.30 they close), I would also suggest daystrips to Toledo, AND Segovia. If you like architecture I would visit both, In Toledo, you will find building from all three of religions, that have been here for centuries (christians, jews, and muslims), the Alcazar (castle) and the Cathedral are beautiful as well. I segovia, you will also find a lovely castle, and you will find the Roman Aquaduct, and numerous churches dating back to the 12,13,14th centuries, that have survived until today. All in all I would suggest spending 2 days in Madrid, and 2 days for the daytrips. As you can spend time in Madrid when you return from both places, you will be able to see enough.

If you are in Spain and want to see more of the Muslim influences in Spain you need to travel South to see Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada. (As far as architectural wonders, are concerned: the Alhambra fit's into that category nicely). The same it true (on a more modern note), for the Familia Sagrada in Barcelona.

For flights to within and from Spain, check Vueling Airlines, Clickair, Air Europa and Iberia. Iberia is not considered a budgetairlines, but often has good deals for some routes.

For the plane to Athens (from Rome), you can also check AirOne (but I think it will be more expensive, but it never hurts to doublecheck), Also the prices on Alitalia, are reasonable.

Happy planning.

[lublue]

Ok, so I've taken your suggestions and decided to cut out Liechtenstein, Germany, and Austria and save them for another trip. Also, I've revised my itinerary a little bit because after talking to friends who have been to Europe, they are convinced that we need to be in Spain for the Running of the Bulls. But my traveling companions and I still want to be in Siena for Palio. Does the following itinerary make sense?

Paris (with day trip to Versailles) - 5
Lucerne - 1
Interlaken/Gimmelwald - 3
evening train to Geneva, overnight train to Venice
Venice - 2-3 (with stop in Bologna on the way to Florence)
Florence - 5 (with day trips to Lucca and San Gimignano)
Assisi - stop for full day on way to Rome
Rome - 4
Sorrento - 3 (with day trips to Pompeii/Amalfi Coast/Capri)
Fly from Naples to Athens
Athens - 2
Friend's house 30 min. from Athens - 2
Mykonos/Santorino - 3
Fly from Athens to Rome
Siena - 2 (here for Palio)
Cinque Terre - 2
Nice - 2
Avignon - stop for full day on way to Pamplona
Pamplona - 3 (here for Running of Bulls, day trip to San Sebastian?)
Madrid - 4 (with day trips to Toledo and Segovia)
Seville - 2
Cordoba or Granada - 1
Valencia - 2
Barcelona - 3
Train to Paris
Fly out of Paris

Also, here are some other things I had questions about. Are Lucca and San Gimignano good day trips from Florence or would you recommend different day trips? I heard Sorrento was a good place to stay near Pompeii and Naples that wasn't too expensive. Would you agree?

My friend in Greece is traveling with us in Italy and Greece, which is why we decided to fly in and out of Athens and not fly out of one of the islands.

In Spain, would you recommend a day trip to San Sebastian or maybe staying a night there before heading to Madrid? Would you recommend a day in Cordoba or a day in Granada? My friend studied abroad in Valencia and really enjoyed it, but I haven't heard anyone mention it on this forum. Is it not worth going?

Thanks everyone! I am getting really excited about my trip and am having so much fun planning it with all your suggestions and advice.

[herrbert]

It looks a lot better,

I would give Rome one day more. (maybe taking 1 day from Florence).

I would stick to one Greek Isle. Santorini (Thira) is quit a long boattrip, as it is one of the Isle futhest away from Athens. (at least for this part of the Archepelo), So you also want to take into account the time you need to get there and to get back.

Barcelona - Paris: take a plane, there are plenty of them available. As I believe you would leave from Paris Charles de Gaulle, I would recommend checking Vueling Airlines or Iberia

On the Spanish bit:

San Sebastian is two hours by train from Pamplona. Personally I would skip Pamplona in favour of more days in Sevilla and Granada for two reasons: first the logistical reason, and secondly because I am not fond of the bullfighting tradition. I would fly Marseille-Madrid with RyanAir, or Nice-Madrid with Iberia (or even more drastic, see Cinque Terre, return to Pisa, and take the plane to Barcelona or Madrid, and also skip Nice, to have days to see, much more of Spain.

If you want to see Granada, you need 2 days. (see the Alhambra, early on the second day, or at least when it opens for the day). I would prefer Granada above Cordoba. Sevilla in two days might be too tight as well. But if you plan it good, you could see the highlights in thoose 2 days.

Valencia is one of the places I haven't been yet (I like the inland better, than the coast), but I hear good things about it, so if you could find the time, then why not?

For transport in Spain check the websites of www.vueling.com , www.iberia.com and www.renfe.es