W. Europe - First Trip - Multi-Month - 4TH DRAFT

[codemonkeyken]

Hello all,

After several months of pouring over many guidebooks, we have arrived at the 4th version of our itinerary. We have added some things (Poland) and dropped others (Greece and Sicily - gonna svae those for a separate trip). What we have now would bring us to about the 4th week of December.

Again, thanks to everyone who has provided input in the past. We have taken your ideas and assimilated then into our planning. As for this draft, no piece of advice is too small and we look forward to any and all comments.

Cheers,
Ken & Renee

Manchester (2)
- D.T. to York
Liverpool (2)
Bath (2)
- D.T. to Stonehenge
London (4)
Bruges (3)
- D.T. to Ypres
Amsterdam (2)
Berlin (5)
- D.T. to Sachenhausen
Dresden (1)
Prague (5)
- D.T. to Kutna Hora
Krakow (2)
- D.T. to Auschwitz
Vienna (4)
- D.T. to Bratislava, Slovakia
Salzburg (2)
Innsbruck (2)
Munich (3)
- D.T. to Dachau
Luzern (1)
Gimmelwald (4)
Paris (5)
- D.T. to Versailles
- D.T. to Vimy Ridge
Barcelona (3)
Valencia (2)
Granada (2)
Sevilla (2)
Lagos (3)
Lisbon (3)
Coimbra (1)
Porto (2)
Salamanca (1)
Segovia (1)
Madrid (5)
- D.T. to Toledo
ONE WEEK DOING VAUGHAN VILLAGE IN SPAIN
Nice (3)
- D.T. to Antibes
- D.T. to Monaco
Turin (1)
Milan (3)
-D.T. to Como
Cinque Terre (4)
- Pisa on way to Florence
Florence (3)
Venice (2)
Bologna (2)
Pesaro (3)
Siena (1)
Rome (5)
- D.T. to catacombs
Sorrento (4)
- D.T. to Naples/Pompeii
- D.T. to Positano
- D.T. to Capri


112 days total

[madamtrashheap]

CMK, was wondering where you'd gone, but clearly you were busy scouring the guidebooks and maps!

Your 4th itinerary looks pretty good, I just have two (well three) tiny tweaks to consider: for Bruges and for the Italian part.

Bruges - the day trip to Ypres will be well worth it so keep it in. And if you can, see if you can spend a few hours in Brussels (museums, statues, etc).

Italy - I'd reverse the Milan-Como part and stay on Lake Como with a day trip to Milan as you'll get more joy out of Como than Milan (IMHO). With this in mind, you may want to alter you route a little and travel Nice- Como via Milan - CT - Florence (with side trip to Pisa) - Bologna - Venice (Pesaro (stop at San Marino on the way)- Siena (would you consider Assisi as well?) - Rome. The catacombs may only take half a day, but are also worth the time.

I'd also suggest a day trip to the castles (Neuschwanstein, Linderhof, etc) from Munich. Dachau will take half a day, including getting out there the spending time at the site.

The number of days you've allocated in places is good too, so you are just about there!

[herrbert]

I think overall it looks really good. My only slight concern would be the time you need to travel in the south of Spain. Two days in Granada is OK. But for Sevilla I would take 3 days, and I would take that day away from Madrid. It also depends a bit on the timing of the travel but from Granada to Sevilla is a 3 hour trainride, but you also need time to go to/from the stations, so that's almost half the day you will need to get to Sevilla. The trip from Sevilla to Lagos, is even longer, and will take most of the day.

When you are in Sevilla and you feel that you don't need the day, you can always make a daytrip to Cordoba, or south to Cadiz, and/or Jerez de la Frontera.

If you want to have reserved tickets for the Alhambra (I presume you will go there), then try to get them, as soon as you know the day you will be in Granada. It will at least save you waiting in line. (although peakseason, might be over when you get there). At the Alhambra you can also get maps, of other cities in Andalusia. Take one for Sevilla, because it's a place, where you can get lost very easy.

[me]

bus is often better than train in Spain/Portugal. i mostly have used trains there, and regretted it.

Seville to Lagos by bus takes a few hours. by train, it takes all day because the train system is underdeveloped there - one must go via Madrid & Lisbon to get from Seville to Lagos!

www.eva-bus.com is the one i used for Lagos to Seville.

due to historical issues, Spain & Portugal have different gauge tracks - at least that's what i was told in 2004, when i was last there. looking at web sites about train track gauges, the 2 countries are listed as having the same kinds of tracks. if so, why don't the tracks go the few meters across the border? why can't one ride straight from Lagos to Seville??

there's another beautiful town in the area, but a more expensive one: Arcos de la Frontera is South of Sevilla.

- d

[pointofnoreturn]

Yeah, Milan wasn't all that spectacular. The only thing worth seeing is the Last Supper during my stopover. I think Duomo is a good bet but I can't say because I didn't see it. Other than that, there's really nothing to see. I like the idea of spending more time in Lake Como - that would give you more "relaxing" to do!

[madamtrashheap]

CMK - I've sent you a PM to answer your other questions. But so that the others are aware (and we stop bagging you about too much time in Milan! ) some of the stops are football (soccer) match related.

[codemonkeyken]

Thanks everyone for your help again. It is really appreciated. What follows below is the updated list of days and some explanations. Again, any further insights appreciated.

We have answered some of MTH questions through PM but we should post our replies here too just so people don't think we are dismissing her ideas out of hand.

- We had planned on visiting Brussels for a half day as we are flying into there from London and then catching an evening train to Bruges, allowing us to spend some time in the centre of town.

- The Milan to Venice part is structured that way because a friend of Renee's is coming to visit and all she wants to see is Florence and Venice. The rest is gravy for her. So, we were gonna make our way to Turin for a night (Juventus Football Club) and then go to Milan to meet her. We figure one day for her to settle in, one day of sights and one day to Como. Because we'll be in to Como in early December we thought a daytrip would suffice as opposed to a stay. Checked prices and they were outrageous. Plus, not sure what the lake will be like.

So, we'd pick her up in Milan and take her with us for about 13 days and drop her in Venice. She can then decide to stay there longer by herself or catch a train to Milan & home.

- We have added Siena as a daytrip from Florence rather than an overnight stay as accomodations were proving a problem in late December.

- As well, have updated Dachau and the Roman Catacombs to 1/2 days each

- As per Herrbert suggestions, we have added extra days to both Sevilla and Lagos to make up for any delays in travel. Thanks for the heads up on both, as well as the other suggestions. We have kept the extra day in Madrid as we plan to do Vaughan Village (anyone know how long the application process takes?) and thus we'd get back to Madrid on a Friday. We are hoping Real Madrid play the next day and thus the Saturday in Madrid.

- David: thanks for the advice on the busses - we will examine that.

- PONR: MTH has it right that we love European football, so this is as much a cultural trip as a football one. So far we plan to see Liverpool, Arsenal, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus and AC Milan or Inter Milan.

Finally, the portion of our Italy trip after Renee's friend leaves is gonna be flexible as we are thinking of doing some WWOOF work. Apparently it's olive harvest season during this time. We would LOVE to hear of your WWOOFing experiences in Italy or abroad, as well as any other ideas of other programs were we can extend our vacation on the cheap.

Thanks again,
Ken & Renee


DRAFT 5:

Manchester (2)
- D.T. to York
Liverpool (2)
Bath (2)
- D.T. to Stonehenge
London (4)
Bruges (3)
- ½ day in Brussels after flight from London/bef. train to Bruges
- D.T. to Ypres
Amsterdam (2)
Berlin (5)
- D.T. to Sachenhausen
Dresden (1)
Prague (5)
- D.T. to Kutna Hora
Krakow (2)
- D.T. to Auschwitz
Vienna (4)
- D.T. to Bratislava, Slovakia
Salzburg (2)
Innsbruck (2)
Munich (3)
- ½ D.T. to Dachau
Luzern (1)
Gimmelwald (4)
Paris (5)
- D.T. to Versailles
- D.T. to Vimy Ridge
Barcelona (3)
Valencia (2)
Granada (2)
Sevilla (3)
Lagos (4)
Lisbon (3)
Coimbra (1)
Porto (2)
Salamanca (1)
Segovia (1)
Madrid (5)
- D.T. to Toledo
ONE WEEK DOING VAUGHAN VILLAGE IN SPAIN
Nice (3)
- D.T. to Antibes
- D.T. to Monaco
Turin (1)
Milan (3)
-D.T. to Como
Cinque Terre (4)
- Pisa on way to Florence
Florence (4)
- D.T. to Siena
Venice (2)
Bologna (2)
Pesaro (3)
Rome (5)
- ½ D.T. to catacombs
Sorrento (4)
- D.T. to Naples/Pompeii
- D.T. to Positano
- D.T. to Capri

114 days total