First time Europe

[stevo6754]

Hey I'm going with a friend to Europe to backpack for the first time. The plan is to go to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy. Heres my itinerary, your input is much appreciated.

5/9
Fly into Duesseldorf Germany, Arrive around 1pm (germany time)
Take train to Munich
Stay the night in Munich
5/10
Munich
Stay night in Munich
5/11
take a train to Salzburg early in the morning
stay the night in Salzburg
5/12
Leave for Innsbruck early in the morning
Arrive in Innsbruck
Stay the night in Innsbruck
5/13
Innsbruck
Stay the night in Innsbruck
5/14
Grab a train to Chur
Take the glacier express to Brig
Grab a train to interlaken
Stay the night in interlaken
5/15
Take gondola to Gimmelwald in the morning
Stay in Gimmelwald for the night
5/16
Stay in gimmelwald
5/17

La Spezia
5/18
Lake Como
5/19
Lake Como
5/20
La Spezia
5/21
Florence
5/22
Rome
5/23
Rome
5/24
Fly out of Rome


So as far as days go
1 day-Munich
1 day- Salzburg
2 day- Innsbruck
2 day- Gimmelwald
1 day- La Spezia
1 day- Lake como
1 day- Florence
2 day- Rome

Any feedback is appreciated, thanks in advance..

[madamtrashheap]

Welcome to GFE, stevo6754.

You've put a lot of work into your itinerary already, which is great, but you a covering a lot of ground in a very short space of time. Looking at your itinerary throws up a few points:

Not sure what your interests are in Munich, but one full day will really only allow for exploring the city. You might be interested in visiting Dachau, but allow a few hours for travel out there and back and spending time there. It you don't do that, condsider taking a Mike's Bike's tour of Munich as a way to see a few things and shake off any jet lag - weather pending of course. Two nights will let you explore the nightlife and a beer hall or two of course.

As you're leaving early the next day for Salzburg, your route and times won't allow any sightseeing of the castles (Neuschwanstein, etc). Not sure if they interest you, but just a thought. Half a day and one night in Salzburg won't really allow much in the way of sightseeing, not sure what you're planning to see there.

Innsbruck and Salzburg aren't that far apart (just under 2hrs) so consider having some extra time the next morning to see more of Salzburg, unless Innsbruck interests you more. What were you planning for your full day there? It's a great little town and good base if you intend to hike a bit. The mountains will still be chilly in May.

Innsbruck to Chur, then Brig then Interlaken will be a long day (about 8 hours on trains, not counting waiting/transit time), but worth it for the scenery. And good to see you're continuing on to Gimmelwald the next day and will have one and a bit days there too. If the weather doesn't play along for the Glacier Express section, know that you have a choice of taking the Cog Rail from Lauterbrunnen to Wengen then on to the Jungfrau while you're either on your way to Gimmelwald or while you're there. And you also have a slightly shorter but still scenic ride up the Murren/Grütschalp funicular from Lauterbrunnen as well as the cable car to Schilthorn to choose from. And of course there's the (short) gondola ride from Stechelberg to Gimmelwald. The scenery in that part of the world is breathtaking no matter what you do. If you were up for it, you could continue on from Interlaken Ost that early evening and stop in Lauterbrunnen that night instead, which will make you just that much closer to Gimmelwald the next day, but it's not an absolute necessity.

Gimmelwald to La Spezia - is there any reason you're going to La Spezia? Most use this harbour town as a way to reach Cinque Terre - is there a reason why you're going here rather than directly to Lake Como?

Lake Como - where were you thinking of staying? Which village?

Florence - there's no need to go Florence from Lake Como via La Spezia, again unless you have a specific reason for this. And one night in Florence is not going to leave time for much of anything. What were your plans for Florence?

Rome - No doubt you've seen a lot of Posts on these Boards that suggest a minimum of 4 nights (3 full days) in Rome. Whilst the fast train from Florence (Eurostar Italia) takes only 1h30, you might consider skipping Florence all together and adding the day to Rome instead.

Is there any way that you can extend your time? If not, you may have to consider adjusting a few days and reducing the number of places you visit as there are some long (although scenic) travel days in there. Good that you have an open jaw flight though.

[stevo6754]

Thanks for the feedback madamtrashheap! Here is our new itinerary

5/9
Land in Duesseldorf
Train to Munich
Stay night in Munich
5/10
Munich
5/11
Munich
5/12
Munich
Take a train that night to Salzburg
Stay night in Salzburg
5/13
Salzburg
5/14
Salzburg
5/15
Leave Salzburg to Chur
Glacier Express Chur to Brigg
Brigg to interlaken
Interlaken to lauderbrunnen
Lauderbrunnen to Murren
Stay night in Murren
5/16
Murren
Schilthorn/Check out piz Gloria
Stay night in murren
5/17
Murren
5/18
Murren
Ski?
5/19
Visit Juangfraujoch
Grab overnight train to Cinque terre
5/20
Cinque terre
Leave that night for Rome
Spend night in Rome
5/21
Rome
5/22
Rome
5/23
Rome
5/24
Fly out of Rome


A couple questions. My estimated travel time from Salzburg to Murren is roughly 14 hours? Does this sound right? Is that feasible to reach Murren from Salzburg in one day of travel?

Were seeing jungfraujoch 5/19, and leaving that night for Cinque terre. The estimated travel time is roughly 12 hours.. The thing is theres like 4-5 changes, so wed be having to wake up alot to change trains if we even fell asleep. Is this a bad idea, or should I not worry about it?

Last question, from what I've read the prime skiing time in Jungfrau region, more specifically murren is up until mid-April, will there be any skiing this time mid May?

[madamtrashheap]

stevo67534, I would have been more inclined to stay in Innsbruck rather than Salzburg, maybe I didn't make that clear enough, but as you haven't indicated what interests you in Innsbruck (sights, hiking?) then leave it as is and spend some time visiting the Salzkammergut region too (Hallstatt, lakes, etc).

Of course, staying in Salzburg instead of Innsbruck will add travel time to your journey to Switzerland, as you've discovered, and whilst you could do the journey in 14hrs, with the changes to itinerary I'd be more inclined to suggest you travel as far as Interlaken on the travel day from Salzburg, then leave for Murren the next morning. You'll still have all the scenery and will have the added advantage of being able to keep your eyes open to see it all this way!

The journey from Lauterbrunnen up the Jungfrau (the
Jungfraujoch is is "saddle" part that is 11,333ft/3454m, the highest point you can reach by train) takes around 2hrs one way so if you left on, say, the 9am train, you'd not be back down in Lauterbrunnen to catch the train until around 3pm (allowing time to see things up there - the views, the glacier caves, etc). For skiing, it does depend on the season (ie, if it's a late one) but as a general rule they close the runs in late April-early May.

So La Spezia was for CT - again a long journey (even overnight) for only half a day in such a beautiful place is hardly worth it. And changing trains during the night, even once, is annoying, so I'd avoid that plan if you can. Perhaps you could either add the day to Rome and use it as a day trip to Pompei or add it to somwhere earlier in your trip.

[herrbert]

Depending on the costs, you could take a flight from Dusseldorf to Munchen, upon arrival, without the need of heading to Munich via train. check Lufthansa (they should have tickets for max. 59 euros for flights inside Germany.) There should be multiple flights a day, and with some luck you could get to Munich faster this way.

btw: is there a reason to fly into Düsseldorf, if you are not gonna stay there? Is flying into Munich so much more expensive?

If you interests for Innsbruck are the same as in the places you mentioned in Switzerland, I would leave out Innsbruck (as you did). From Salzburg check the Ice Caves in Werfen, which is a nice daytrip. (www.eisriesenwelt.com) These are not too far away, and with the extra it could be a possible daytrip. (by train it's 30-45 minutes to Werfen)

[stevo6754]

Thank you both for your input.

I chose to get rid of Innsbruck because it seemed like it had most similar activities to Jungfrau region Switzerland. The sights we were looking to see in Salzburg were Festung Hohensalzburg, Schloss hellbrun, and the ice caves, depending on how much time we have. I'm not sure we would be able to see all three of those in a 2 full day period?

Also thank you Madamtrashheap for the suggestion of staying in Interlaken for the night. That is our new plan for the night of the 5/15, then travel to Murren the next day.

Now we have decided to cut the day of 5/19 out of Switzerland, and instead leave that morning from Murren to Cinque Terre. So we would be in Cinque Terre the night of the 5/19 and the day of the 5/20 traveling to Rome that night.

We have decided not to ski. Is 3 full days in Murren enough time to see Piz Gloria, Jungfraujoch, do some hiking, and see the best parts of this region?

Do you think it is a good idea to cut a day off switzerland or just get rid of Cinque Terre all together?

Herrbert I believe is was some where around a 400$ difference flying in to Duesseldorf, I didn't make the reservation so I don't know the exact savings off the top of my head, but the total for the round trip was around $1,010.00.

Thanks for any advice, it's greatly appreciated.

[Eagle]

stevo6754, as MTH mentioned, WELCOME! I have a few comments to add.

Your revised Itinerary looks quite workable. A few questions on some of your destinations:

> Munich - were you planning to take day trips from here?

> Salzburg - again, any day trips?

> Berner Oberland - you might find it more interesting to travel to Murren via the Schilthornbahn Cable Car, rather than from Lauterbrunnen. If you need specific information on the route, let me know.

I wouldn't bother spending one night in Interlaken, unless you want to familiarize yourself with the town. It's only a short train ride to Lauterbrunnen and Murren.

Yes, three days should be adequate to visit Piz Gloria, do some hiking and see the Junfraujoch (which as I recall is a bit expensive). The trip to Piz Gloria is a bit pricey, but I believe the first trip in the morning is slightly less expensive. Also, if you're travelling with a Rail Pass that includes Switzerland, there may be a discount. From Murren you'll take two separate Gondola rides to reach Piz Gloria (Murren to Birg and Birg to Piz Gloria).

In late May, I suspect the skiing will be pretty much over for the year, so it's good that you've decided to drop that. You might consider Paragliding instead!

I wouldn't drop the Cinque Terre from your Itinerary, as it provides a good "intermediate stop" between the Berner Oberland and Rome.

I'll have a closer look at your rail trips, etc. in the next day or so and will see if I can streamline those or offer further suggestions.

As this is your first trip to Europe, I'd highly recommend reading the guidebook Europe Through The Back Door. It will provide you with a LOT of information on travelling efficiently in Europe, using the rail systems, money issues, languages, Itinerary planning, packing, etc.

BTW, where are you flying from

More in a few days.....

Cheers!

[stevo6754]

Thanks for the Input Eagle!

Were actually flying out of Orlando, Florida, and have a stop in Atlanta, then fly straight to Duesseldorf.

As far as day trips go for Munich, I believe Schloss Neuschwanstein was on the list, possible book that with radius tours as mentioned earlier I believe. We also wanted to see Englischer Garten, Marienplatz, Peterskirche, possibly olympic park, and maybe Schloss Herrenchiemsee, and Schloss Nymphenburg. I know Schloss neuschwanstein about 1 hour away. So possibly a half-full day trip just visiting that? Schloss Herrenchiemsee is also about an hour away I believe so same deal there. Schloss Nymphenburg is much closer so I dont think that would be a day trip? Any suggestions or corrections on my estimates? Or maybe any suggestions on other things of interest?

Salzburg we wanted to see the ice caves, Schloss Hellbrunn and Festung Hohensalzburg. I doubt we can do all 3 in 2 full days because I believe the ice caves and Hellbrunn are both day trips?

I really appreciate all the input from everyone, the itinerary looks pretty solid and I'm starting to look at hostels/hotels to book in these areas( I know I'm very late!).

[herrbert]

I think you will find that the trip to Neuschwanstein is a bit more than a half day trip, for sure if you also want to visit the Castle of Hohenschwanau.

With only two days in Salzburg, you need to plan really well. You are talking about going to Salzburg in the night, but I think that because of the distance, which is really short, there will be no trains in the night. (unless one of the nighttrains heading for Vienna would make a stop at both stations). I think it would be better to take a train in the evening or in the morning.

Hellbrunn is still in Salzburg itself, on the south end of the city/town. So it will not take long to get there. If you plan well you can have the day in Werfen (with the ice caves and the Castle of Hohenwerfen), and still see pretty much of the city itself.

Is there a fascination for Castles? I only see castles you want to visit? (while for me they all look alike.)

[madamtrashheap]

stevo6754, for the Munich portion of your trip, you'll need a full day for a trip to see Neuschwanstein and Hohenschwangau (they are quite close, and are often both included on tours). Tour companies include Radius and Mike's Bikes, but for a full list try www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/tourist_office/stadtfuehrungen/88140/uebersicht_stadtfuehrungen.html Linderhof is another castle in that region, and I believe some day tours offer all three in their itinerary, but you wouldn't have much time to see inside them if that's what interests you. If you plan to see Herrenchiemsee (it's well worth it) you'll need another day as it's not "right next door" to the other castles and you'll need to take the short boat ride across Chiem Lake to reach the Castle. Two full days and a car are the optimal way to do the "Ludwig II Castles Tour".

For Munich city, May could still be a little chilly for the Englischer Garten but the Chinesische Turm beer garden (one of three beer gardens in the park) shoudl be open, so if it's a sunny day, take a jacket and find a seat in the garden amongst the Uni students, locals and tourists alike. There are lots of actual beer halls in Munich to choose from other than just the Hofbräuhaus (pronounce “hofbrouee” house – best phoenetics I
can come up with). Of course it's one of the more well-known beer halls in Munich and is frequented by lots of tourists, but still has a little corner where the locals hang out (Friday and Saturday nights) with their Lederhosen and hats. Other beer halls in Munich worth visiting include the Löwenbräukeller, Franziskaner Keller and Paulaner Keller as a start.

Marienplatz (Marien Square - the main city square) and Peterskirche (St Peter's Church) are located right in the city centre. In fact, Marienplatz is a good starting point for visiting a few things in the vicinity: the Frauenkirche (Our Lady's Church - look for the devil's footprint), climb the dome of St Peter's Church (the other St Peter's) for great views, have lunch in the Viktualenmarkt (market in centre of city, lots to choose from), stroll the shopping street Kaufingerstrasse (literally named "shopping street") that runs off Marienplatz up to Karlstor (Karl's Gate). Your visit to the Nymphenburg Palace will be easy as it's still in Munich (5km from the centre) and easily reached by bus or tram, sneak a look at the Residenz too which is located behind Marienplatz (opposite side to St Peter's). If you're into science the Deutsches Museum might be of interest and the BMW museum, whilst for fans mainly, has moved back to it's renovated sight opposite Olympic Park so that's an option while you're out there too. And don't forget to stand with the crowds in Marienplatz at 11am or 5pm and watch the cheesey-but-cool show that is the Glockenspiel!

You haven't listed Dachau, but in case you're considering it, here is some information: the official website www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/englisch/content/ has travel directions and information on the historical sight. Make sure you take note of the hours and closing day.

Enjoy your "castle hunt"!

[stevo6754]

Thanks everyone for the input! I don't plan on seeing all those castles but were still working on what we want to see in each place. This itinerary has become pretty solid thanks to all the contributions and I really appreciate it. My next step will be the make hostel reservations, so I may be hanging out over at the accommodation forum now!