Probably too ambitious

[jvsquirt]

I'm a first timer, and I want to see everything that I can. I know I'm probably too ambitious, but I don't know if I will ever be able to afford to go again, at least not until after I have kids and they are all grown and gone. It's just me and my husband and this is what we were thinking.

London (2 days)
Paris (4 days including one to Normandy)
Brussels (1 day)
Amsterdam (1 day)
Munich (2 days)
Salzburg (2 days)
Zurich (1 day)
Rome (2 days)

Do you guys think this would even be possible? I don't want to get there and find out that there's no way we can do all this, but I just want to see as much as I possibly can.

[Mikul]

That would be one fast passed trip. If you could double all of those times, that would definitely help. Do you only have two weeks available? I am not an expert at planning routes here, but you could fly to London, take the Eurostar to Paris, then to Brussels, and have a few days in Amsterdam.

[madamtrashheap]

Welcome to GFE, jvsquirt.

Mikul's point about your trip being face paced is valid - particularly the places for 1 day as you also spend travel time in between that can eat into time in cities.

London requires a minimume of 4 days to see and experience the city a little more. Paris for 4 days, one of which is to Normandy is ambitious and unless you only have a cursory interest in seeing the sights, you'll find you miss some great experiences. Brussels in one day is possible (Mannekin Pis, Grand'Place, beer, waffle, fries and a pot of mussels, but that's it) and you need to ask yourself what it is you want to see there. Amsterdam for 1 day is rushed, 2 full days would be better (again, what do you want to see?). Munich for 2 days only allows time in the city and perhaps Dachau or a day trip to the castles, but not both. Salzburg for two days is good, you can explore the Salzkammergut area a little more. Zurich for 1 day - skip it all together or make it 2-3 days in the mountains (Gimmelwald, Lauterbrunnen, etc). Rome in 2 days (as long as they are full days) will allow only for a quick skirt around the historical centre (Pantheon, Trevi, etc), half a day (or a whole day depending on interests) in Vatican City (Sistine Chaple, St Peters, wave at the Pope) and time for a quick gelato, but that's it.

It's totally understandable that you want to cram in as much as possible, but you also want to actually see things in person and not from a train window or as you're running past on your way to the next sight. Perhaps remove some places and make the tour of your top 3-4 places in 2 weeks. Look at budget flights between these places as depending on which cities make your list, you may find flight maximise your time better. And what's to say your kids won't inherit your love of travel and accompany you and your husband on future trips?!!

[Eagle]

jvsquirt, Welcome to the Boards! I have a few comments to add as well.

To start with, I definitely agree with others - this Itinerary is way too ambitious for a two week trip! Is there any possible way you could add some extra time? I can very much understand your logic in trying to accomplish a short visit to Europe before you get "tied down" with mortgage payments, children and other complications.

It would help to know where you'll be flying from. If you're located in North America, you'll normally lose the first day due to flight times and time zone changes (you'll arrive in Europe the day after you depart).

The cities you've listed are somewhat geographically distant, and it's essential that you build adequate travel times into your Itinerary. Open jaw flights would be strongly recommended for a trip of this sort duration.

My suggestion would be to drop all the one-night stops and focus more on the others. I think the majority of the group here would agree that the most significant cities of London, Paris and Rome deserve at least five days each (although you could "get by" with 3-4 if absolutely necessary). You might consider an Itinerary along these lines:

> Flight to London (1 day - suggest inbound flight to Gatwick / LGW as it's a smaller airport)

> London (3 days - plan your touring carefully as there's LOTS to see!)

- EuroStar to Paris

> Paris - 3 days (again, plan your touring carefully - if you're planning to visit any of the major Museums or others sites, a Paris Museum Pass would be a good idea, perhaps the two-day version. It would be a good idea to reconsider the day trip to Normandy and add that to a future trip - if you were planning on visiting the D-Day beaches, it's not possible to reach these by train so you'd have to either hire a Car or take one of the many tours that are offered in that area. The best D-Day tours (IMHO) are offered by BattleBus but to take one of their tours you'd have to stay at least one night in Bayeux, as the tours depart at about 08:00 every morning from there. It's would not be possible to get there by 08:00 if taking a train from Paris).

- TGV / fast train to next destination (for example, if you're travelling to Munich there's a train departing Paris Est at 07:24, arriving Munchen 13:30, travel time 6H 06M, 1 change in Stuttgart, reservations compulsory).

> Munich OR Salzburg (3 days - you wouldn't be able to visit both locations. While both cities are beautiful and offer lots to see and do, I'd suggest Munich for your first visit, as the transportation is a bit easier. There are lots of sights - Marienplatz, the Deutsches Musuem (over 16 kM of exhibits!), Viktualien Market, Churches and of course day tours to Ludwig's Castles in Fussen - I'd suggest arranging that through Radius Tours as they take care of all the arrangments).

- Train to Rome (this will take the better part of a full day, even with fast trains - this is one case where I might suggest using a night train, and paying for a Couchette - there's a train departing Munchen Hbf at 21:03, arriving Roma Termini at 09:05, travel time 12H 02M, no changes, reservations compulsory)

- Rome (3 days - again, plan your touring carefully, especially so you don't have to spend a lot of time in queue's at major sights).

As this is your first trip to Europe, I'd strongly recommend reading the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door, as it provides a LOT of great information on how to travel safetly and affordably in Europe. Pay particular attention to the "Rail Skills" chapter!

Good luck with your planning!

[jvsquirt]

Thank you all so much. Yeah I'm in North America but I wasn't counting that first day in my itinerary since I know it will erase the whole day. I can maybe add one more day to my itinerary but that would be it. Where do you think I should put that extra day? Also, should I choose b/t Belgium and Netherlands instead of trying to do both? If so, which is the best of the two? Sorry, I'm full of questions. I'm so excited and want to do it right. Also, do you know where I can find a train schedule, and do these pretty much stay the same year round? One more question, would it be worth it to buy a Eurorail pass? Thank you all so much!!

[herrbert]

www.bahn.de/international/view/en/index.shtml Is the website for taking a look at the trainshedules in Europe. For the connection between London, and Paris, check the website of Eurostar.

I would concentrate on the first 4 cities you mentioned. They are close to each other, which means minimizing de time spend on trains, which is a good thing on a short trip. It means that you never loose much more than a few hours on trains, so there is always at least half a day available for sightseeing. Which could also include Brugge in Belgium or Den Haag (The Hague) or Haarlem (in the Netherlands) as daytrips.

I think the other valid option is to go: London - Paris, and after that take a cheap flight to Rome. With 4 whole days in each of these cities, and some travelling days, you will have the time these cities deserve, without needing to feel rushed during your trip. (if you do this, an open jaw flight (like Eagle recommends) would be logical)

Is Eurail worth it? It depends on the final route, but it is something that needs to be calculated. It would also depends on, if you are able to get some bargains, for some routes if you don't. If you make one of the routes I mention above. I don't think it would make a lot of sense to buy a pass.