Western Europe

[elyse]

My two friends and I are frantically trying to get organized for our trip at the end of May! We bought our plane tickets, round-trip flying into London for $400, and that's about all we've done so far. We have a list of destinations that we want to visit, but we aren't sure if there are some places we're forgetting about, or some on our list that aren't worth going to. I am the only female in the group, and I'm not down for the "fly by the seat of my pants" kinda thing my friends want to do. I'd be more comfortable with a rough itinerary that hits all the places we want to see, in a logical order. Another thing - we don't want to rush through our trip just to visit as many places as possible. That being said...how much of our list below can be tackled in 7 weeks?

Spain: Barcelona, Madrid, Ibiza
France: Paris, Provence region
Italy: Venice, Cinque Terre, Florence, Rome
Switz: Gimmelwald
Netherlands: Amsterdam
England: London
Germany: Berlin, Munich
Denmark: Copenhagen
Sweden: Stockholm
Czech Rep: Prague
Austria: Vienna, Salzburg

We were also interested in Monaco for the start of the Tour de France and Pamplona for the running of the bulls.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...
Are we wasting time with some places on our list, missing any that should be considered, being too ambitious, etc? We've budgeted for about 5,000 USD...is that enough?
*We are all 21 years old and like night life, outdoorsy activities, live music. We want to experience a mixture of big cities and small villages/countryside. We will be using Eurailpasses and staying in hostels.

[Eagle]

elyse, welcome to the GFE Boards! I have a few comments to start the discussion.

To begin with, IMHO your proposed Itinerary is far too ambitious for a seven week trip! You've listed 21 destinations (including Monaco & Pamplona) to visit in a space of 49 days. That's approximately 2.3 days in each city with no allowance for travel times. Some of your travel distances will require the better part of a day, so I'm not sure this is going to be feasible? Keep in mind also that you have to allow time to get back to London for your flight home (open jaw flights would have made this much easier!), so you won't have a full 49 days for travel.

The cities "we're forgetting about" won't be the main concern, especially as you indicated "I'm not down for the "fly by the seat of my pants" kinda thing my friends want to do". You also stated "we don't want to rush through our trip just to visit as many places as possible", but I suspect that's exactly what you'll be doing if you try to follow this Itinerary.

The "bottom line" - I believe you'll seriously need to think about reducing the number of cities on your list and drop some of those that are farther geographically from the "core area" that you'll be visiting. Consider travel distances & times when you're planning your route. You might want to drop Copenhagen and Stockholm to begin with, as they're a bit farther removed from your other locations (and also a very expensive part of Europe to travel in).

One other thing to consider is that the end of May is not too far away. If you haven't pre-booked accommodations, you may have to allow time in each city for finding a place to sleep, as that time of year is nearing the end of the spring shoulder season and Europe could be VERY busy.

You may already be aware of this, but when using a Eurailpass you'll need to pay separately for reservations on those trains where they're compulsory (usually the "fast" trains such as the TGV in France, EuroStar Italia, etc.). DON'T be caught without a valid reservation, as you'll be fined on the spot!

Regarding your budget, US$5000 could be a bit challenging for a trip of 49 days, especially if you enjoy a lot of "night life". At current exchange rates, that's about €3760 (or €76/day) or £3500 (or £71/day). However, you didn't indicate whether that amount is just for lodgings, food, incidentals and local transportation, or whether it also includes your air fares and rail passes? Deleting some of the cities on your list will also reduce your costs to some extent, as you'll have less travel between cities.

If possible, I'd highly recommend reading the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door, as it provides a LOT of information on how to travel smartly and efficiently in Europe. It's more of a "pre-read" Guidebook, rather than one that you pack along on the trip.

Good luck with your planning!

[herrbert]

I agree with most that Eagle has already written down, except for the point that Stockholm is out of the way. If you only consider trains, than he's absolutely correct, but if you consider a cheap flight. (from Berlin, as an example on Air Berlin 54 euros on 29-6) you'll see that it's only a 90 minutes flight. Of course you need the transfer to and from the airport, but it won't be longer than some of the other connections. Yes in general Scandinavia is a bit more expensive, but you can manage your spendings there, by buying you food and drinks at the supermarket, and don't go out, as drinks in a bar are really expensive.

For Scandinavia, I would add Helsinki to the wishlist. In my opinion a more beautiful city, compared to Stockholm, and with some good daytrips.

But as Eagle already pointed out, it is necessary to make some choices. I think the best thing to keep in mind is, that Europe is not going to run away. So think in a way that whatever you don't see on this trip, will be for a future trip. Also take a good look at your connections, and try to find out how many days you need in a city. (read about what there is to do, and compare your initerary with other ones you can find on the boards.)

[Eagle]

elyse,

Just to clarify, there were a few reasons I suggested dropping the Scandinavian countries from this trip:

> They're farther removed from the "principal area" you'll be travelling, and therefore require time and money to get back and forth.

> Given the fact that the end of May is rapidly approaching, you may not get the most favourable rates on the budget airlines as many of the seats may already be sold (although I haven't checked). Keep in mind also that the budget airlines have VERY restrictive baggage limits, so your budget will have to allow for paying "over weight" charges. The baggage limits aren't usually a problem for E.U. residents as they can travel a bit "lighter". However, for those of us from outside the E.U., we often have to pack a bit more so it's difficult to keep the weight down.

> Even using budget airlines, travel to the Scandinavian countries will use the better part of a full day. You'll have to allow time to get the the airport, check-in, clear security, wait for departure time and then get into the city once you reach the destination. Many of the budgets use "out of the way" airports, so you'll need to account for that in your travel times and budget.

> Scandinavia is more expensive than some of the other countries you'll be visiting, and with a limit of US$5000, it seemed like those would be the most logical to drop (and I believe you WILL have to drop some of your proposed destinations).

Good luck!

[elyse]

Thank you both for your suggestions! I wanted to add a couple things in response to what you guys wrote.
We are going from May 20-July15, so we'll have a little more than 49 days. As far as not having an open-jaw flight, we sorta planned to travel in a circular fashion (I won't go into detail, as there is an itinerary board for that). Our $5,000 budget does include our flights. We got them for $400, and we found tickets for the Chunnel for like $130ish round-trip. We were planning on getting the Eurailpass for two months consecutive travel so that we could be more spontaneous...that will cost $1024. We will be in hostels for the majority of our trip, and we figured that to be 30 USD a night? As for eating, we are going to buy food in markets instead of eating out each meal. I did read the 2008 edition of Rick Steves' Europe through the Back Door...actually, that is where I got most of our itinerary from. He had a sample itinerary called Europe's best two-month trip (61 days), and I pretty much copied it exactly, only substituting a few places on his list for some on ours. His trip even included a round trip flight to London! I think our rough itinerary has less destinations than his does, which makes sense b/c our trip is 5 days less than his. Also, I made our plan go in reverse order of his, b/c we wanted to end in Spain (for the running of the bulls), instead of be there in the beginning of the trip.
I guess this is why I'm so confused/freaking out a little bit...the stuff I've read (Rick Steves) said we could do all of this, but then I read the message boards for itinerary help, and they all say it's not possible?
And I have a couple additional questions...
How do I go about booking hostels in advance? My friends are totally against this idea, as it ruins the spontaneity of the trip, but from reading the boards, I've made the executive decision that it needs to be done!
And Eagle, I'm not clear on the trains you mentioned that require reservations/additional fees. What are they, and when/why would I need to take them?
Thanks in advance for any more help!

[Eagle]

elyse, a few additional comments.....

I'm a devout Rick Steves fan (spoke with him in Jan.), but I have a problem with some of the "suggested Itineraries" that he's listed. While they might theoretically be feasible for very experienced travellers under ideal conditions and with precise planning, in my experience they're not as practical for the average traveller.

One suggestion (if you haven't already) would be to post your proposed Itinerary on the RS HelpLine ("General Europe" section?), in order to get further opinions on the how practical or feasible it is. You might mention that you got the idea from reading his books.

Regarding booking Hostels, try www.hostelworld.com or www.hihostels.com/dba/continent-EU.en.htm for further information. The HI Hostels are part of a chain, so buying a Membership (very inexpensive) will get you slightly better rates and preferred booking (ie: if a member and a non-member are both seeking a room, the member will get first choice).

Regarding reservations on the trains, these are compulsory on virtually all of the "fast trains" such as the TGV in France, EuroStar Italia and the Thalys in the Benelux countries. For further reading, have a look at the "Train Reservations" section at www.ricksteves.com/rail/usepass.htm. You may also want download the PDF Reservation Fee List in that section and also download the PDF Rail Guide at www.ricksteves.com/rail/railpdf.htm.

Hope this provides the information you need.

Cheers!

[herrbert]

Mar 29, 2009 15:15:09 GMT -5 Eagle said:

elyse,

Just to clarify, there were a few reasons I suggested dropping the Scandinavian countries from this trip:

> They're farther removed from the "principal area" you'll be travelling, and therefore require time and money to get back and forth.

> Given the fact that the end of May is rapidly approaching, you may not get the most favourable rates on the budget airlines as many of the seats may already be sold (although I haven't checked). Keep in mind also that the budget airlines have VERY restrictive baggage limits, so your budget will have to allow for paying "over weight" charges. The baggage limits aren't usually a problem for E.U. residents as they can travel a bit "lighter". However, for those of us from outside the E.U., we often have to pack a bit more so it's difficult to keep the weight down.

> Even using budget airlines, travel to the Scandinavian countries will use the better part of a full day. You'll have to allow time to get the the airport, check-in, clear security, wait for departure time and then get into the city once you reach the destination. Many of the budgets use "out of the way" airports, so you'll need to account for that in your travel times and budget.

> Scandinavia is more expensive than some of the other countries you'll be visiting, and with a limit of US$5000, it seemed like those would be the most logical to drop (and I believe you WILL have to drop some of your proposed destinations).

Good luck!

Eagle raises some good points. Some budgetairlines use out of the way airports, but for Stockholm only Ryanair is the one that is not flying to Arlanda airport (20 minutes from the airport to T-Centralen in the middle of Stockholm.) as far as I know I have not spotted an other airline not using this airport.

My point was more that if you use a trainconnection from Berlin to Amsterdam, you lose more time, than on a flight Berlin - Stockholm. Obviously you need to find a good ticket to go, and for that it's best to book far ahead.

Of course it is easier to connect dots that are closer to eachother, but if Stockholm would be a must-see it's not an impossible destination. (I would also prefer to see more of Scandinavia than only Stockholm and Copenhagen, but you can do that on a future trip, with maybe a little more budget.)

Also: Sweden is not a Euro country, and it's coin has drop against the Euro (just like many others), so it's still expensive, but not as expensive as it was. (0.1065 a year ago to 0.0914 today)

but that is as far as I go in defending Stockholm, bakc to your questions.

There is a lot you can see in 7 weeks, and it also depends a bit on your interests, and if you want to see "everything", or leave some things for a re-visit. You then also need to plan precisely and be lucky that the connections work out the way you want them to.

As you already stated you don't want to rush through the trip, I am (and I guess we are) under the impression that you like to take your time in every city. Personaly I always try to add at least an extra half day, just to wander about the city to be able to bump into stuff the books don't tell you about.

If you are going to travel in May, June and July, you need to book hostels in advance. And I suggest to start with that at the moment you finished the itinerary. In every city the good and cheaper hostels are filling up fast for this period. If you don't you might end up in a hotel (more expensive) or in a less desired hostel.

It's proven that the spontanious travelers see less on their trip, and in my opinion the spontaneity card is drawn too quickly by people, who are just to lazy to their preparation. If you have all the time in the world than I can understand it, but I guess by now you realised that 7 weeks is not that much. Also not booking ahead, means that you need to do the booking on the trip itself, or start looking for a hostel when you arrive. Both options means losing a lot of time, that can be better spend in actualy seeing stuff.

If you have events that you want to attend (in this case the running of the bulls), than ofcourse you need to be there at that moment in time. So if the reverse initerary doesn't work, than leave it how it is. My comment was only meant to higher than chances of good weather. But from the end of May until July, the weather should be good in most parts of Europe anyway. (although it can get really hot in the south.)