6 wk/ May-June (Wst-europe)- need opinions please

[fma]

Hi!

There are two of us (female mid 20s) traveling to Europe mid may/ end of June, and i think we have planned more than we can visit and are comfortable with and not feel rushed. we have to start off in Italy as my younger brother is joining us for the first week and wants to see Milan (football) and Rome. This is rough idea so far.

fly to Milan-2 days (not including travel day)
fly to Venice 2 days (ryanair has a flight sale and cuts out travel time)
either train or fly to Florence -2 days
either train or fly to Rome- 3 days
fly to Athens-7 days (including ferrying to the islands)
back to Rome (this is where i face a challenge)
fly to Madrid-2 days
train to Seville-2 days
train to Granada-2days
fly to Barcelona-3 days
fly to ibiza (meeting up with friends)-1 day
Paris-3 days
Berlin-3 days
Milan to fly home
i have more days, and i tried to be modest with the days/places because i didn't want to feel rushed.

i am big fan of ryanairs seat sale right now, thus we have chosen to fly to most places. does getting a rail pass make sense?
.

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as this is our first time to Europe and we know we wont do the all the places justice.
thank you for your time.

[Eagle]

fma, welcome to GFE! I have a few initial thoughts on your proposed Itinerary.

> Milan - it's not one of the top "tourist destinations", but two days should be good. If you were planning to see The Last Supper, note that reservations are required.

- Flying to Venice is not the best idea. Using one of the fast trains, the travel time from Milan to Venice is only about 2H:20M. Travel by air will most certainly take far more time than that, as you'll have to get to the airport (and with RyanAir it will probably be a very much "out of the way" small airport), clear security, etc. and when you arrive in Venice you'll have to get into the city from the airport. I'd strongly suggest that the EuroStar Italia would be a far better choice!

Use the train to Florence as well.

> Florence - if you're planning to visit the Uffizi or the Accademia, reservations would be a really good idea, especially for a visit of only two days, so that you don't spend much of your time in a queue.

Use the train to Rome also. It's only about 1H:36M via fast trains!

> Rome - 3 days is not much time. Plan your touring carefully so that you don't waste any time.

If you're taking the Ferry to Athens, you'll have to allow for travel time to either Bari or Brindisi. You could probably fly, but I'd have to check?

> Athens - seven days? That's a lot for Athens. Were you planning to visit any of the islands as well?

Why are you returning to Rome from Athens? It would be much easier to fly from Athens to Barcelona. Both Vueling and ClickAir operate on that route.

For the Spain portion of your journey, herrbert will have the best advice so I'll leave that part for him.

Flying from Spain to Paris would be the best choice, as it's a long journey. I'd have to check to determine which airlines operate on that route.

> Paris - three days is barely adequate, but as in Rome plan your touring carefully. A Paris Museum Pass would be a good idea if you're planning to visit any of the Museums, especially as it helps to minimize queues.

It's a bit of a long travel day from Paris to Berlin, but using fast trains it should be manageable.

Rather than returning to Milan for the flight home, it would be preferable to use open-jaw flights, as that would not only provide at least an extra day for touring but also avoids the time and cost of returning to your starting point. It would help to know where you're flying from?

While overnight trains may "cut down on lodging for the night", keep in mind that if you're renting a Couchette the cost is not much different than a Hostel. Using night trains is only a benefit if you choose a direct train, rather than one that has several changes during the night.

Once you have a more or less "finalized" Itinerary, you can enter the details into www.railsaver.com and the site will suggest the best combination of Rail Passes and P-P tickets for that particular Itinerary. Note that when using a Rail Pass, these do NOT include the reservation fees that are compulsory on some of the fast trains, these must be paid separately!

You indicated this would be your first trip to Europe, so I'd highly recommend that you read the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door, as it provides a LOT of good information on the best ways to travel Europe. Some of the topics covered include rail skills, money, language issues, etc.

I'm sure the others will have lots of suggestions also.

Cheers!

[fma]

Hi eagle!

Thanks a ton for your input. We are flying from toronto, and the reason we are flying to milan, is to watch a football match between Inter Milan and Siena. (it may seem like a dull reason, but the 3 of us are football fans).

I did do some research and found flights connecting between athens and spain, so the backtracking issue seems solved.

Since I have another 12 days to play with, Ill add another day to paris and rome.

Once again, thank you.

this took some of the stress off.

[herrbert]

Mar 31, 2009 20:09:51 GMT -5 Eagle said:

For the Spain portion of your journey, herrbert will have the best advice so I'll leave that part for him.

sorry for being late. (I have started my new job, so i've been busy.)

I think you are too ambitious in the Spanish part of the trip and you need prioritise. 2 days in Madrid, is too little. There is too much to see and do (nightlife is good.) Also you want to check out Toledo, and if you like Segovia as well. These are both daytrips, that can be easily done. which means you are back in Madrid in the evenings.

Sevilla and Granada are about right, but you only need to calculate that you also need some time to travel. If you take the AVE from Madrid-Atocha to Sevilla Santa Justa, it will take 2,5 hours. If you plan ahead you can try to get a hostel, that is not too far from Atocha. (there are a couple in the Huertas-neighbourhood), which is close enough to walk.

Also anticipate that the trip between Sevilla and Granada takes about 3 hours by train (or bus). So you'll lose about half the day in total. I would make it therefore about 2,5 days in Sevilla, take the train in the afternoon, and than 2 full days in Granada. (if you are using hostels, I would recommend the Oasis for both cities.)

Flying to Ibiza for 1 day? In my opinion if you want to meet with friends on an island, you should take advantage, and stay there a few days more. Also take some time to see, and spend time with your friends.

I am not a big fan of Ryanair because of all the hidden costs and lack of service, and their stupid music, and announcements. And also more important, because they very often use out of the way airports. For your trip, you need to take a closer look at the airports they use in Paris (Beauvais), Milan (Bergamo) and Barcelona (Girona) all of these are not the airports that are the closest to the city, and these need some long transfers by bus. So you lose time, and as you need to pay the transfer, this also in an extra cost. Also be aware of their weight limits, these are low!, and being overweight (the suitcase ) means paying a fine. I believe that on a lot of routes, there are other (and better, and sometimes more expensive/sometimes less expensive) alternatives. If Ryanair flies Milan - Venice it would surprise me, as they use Bergamo and Treviso for those places. I think that the transfers to both airports, takes longer than taking a bus straight to Venice.

www.edreams.com is in my opinion the best search engine to find flights, as it compares budget and non-budget airlines. (and non-budget airlines, also feel the competition, so they are sometimes just as cheap.)

[madamtrashheap]

To add to the suggestions from the boys:

Athens/Greece - you've allocated 7 days for Athens and islands, which island(s) were you considering? If you were thinking of taking the ferry to, say, Santorini, that's a whole day of travel, well around 8 hours. Whilst it's a pretty journey and arriving in Santorni by ferry is spectacular, that's a day taken up with travelling, so bear that in mind when planning. You could look at flying one leg with Aegena Air instead, so you can still take a ferry but perhaps fly back to Athens to continue on to Barca. As a guide, and depending on your interests for Athens, usually 2 full days in the city is a good amount of time, then the rest on an island or two, depending on your choices. Remember, if you can to not feel rushed, maybe pick one island for 3 full days and throw the spare days on to your time in Ibiza instead.

Ditto to Eagle's suggestion to fly from Athens to Barcelona directly - try Vueling (Athens to Barce) or Aegena Air (to book a flight from, eg Santorini or Mykonos changing in Athens on to Barca) for good prices. I second both Eagle & herrbert on the Ryanair avoidance thing - there are plenty of airlines servicing the routes you need to fly that have greater luggage allowance and fly to better-located airports. If you've already bought your Ryanair flights (esp the Milan-Venice one) then go with it, unless they only cost GPP5, then ditch them in favour of the train. Good that you've added days to the cities suggested earlier - you'll be glad you did and may even catch another football match in Rome!

Paris - Berlin: as noted, you could look to take the fast trains (around 8.5hrs on the Intercity) or overnight trains (one leaving at 8.20pm that gets to Paris around 9 the next morning with no changes), but also look at flying to see if there are any budget flights available and to maximise your time in either city. Try Air Berlin for deals.

To throw another city into the mix (if you still have days to play with) look at Munich - good chance of seeing another football match (if you follow the Budesliga) and great city to boot (pun intended!) ;D I mentioned it because you might find flights back to YYZ from Frankfurt (an easy 3hr ICE train ride from Munich)) that are open-jaw. Or finish in Berlin as Eagle suggested and fly from there.