Across Europe (4-5 months)

[niknar]

Hey everyone.

I'm 18 years old and itching to travel. While doing some research I found this forum, saw "A good starting point for those who don't know where to begin" and figured this was a good place to ask some questions!

I'm still in the very early stages of planning, but my haphazard, tentative plan (no dates yet) is something like this:

Leave Vancouver, Canada -> Dublin, Ireland
Dublin -> Belfast
Belfast -> Glasgow, Scotland
Glasgow -> London, England
London -> Amsterdam, Netherlands
Amsterdam -> Paris, France (Maybe Brussels on the way?)
Paris -> Corsica
Corsica -> Rome, Italy
Rome -> Athens, Greece
Athens -> Kiev, Ukraine (Chernobyl)
Kiev -> Vancouver, Canada

I'd like to be able to do this on a budget of about $7000-$8000 CDN. I'm not planning on purchasing many souvenirs, that's what my camera is for!

I've been to Paris (4 days), then took the train/bus to Barcelona and Madrid. This was in 2008 with a school group. The entire trip lasted about 10 days, so I have an idea of what to expect in Europe, but it WAS still a tour after all.

Basically, I'm looking for any suggestions/advice/words of wisdom that you can offer. Like I said, this plan is not concrete, these are just places I want to go. I am completely open to any suggestions as to where is worthwhile and how to get around. I want to travel extremely light, backpacker style. Obviously I will need to make a few flights, but for travelling over ground I'm assuming the train is going to be the most efficient use of money.

Any suggestions in terms of how much time to spend in each place? I'm thinking 3-4 days in most places, except for Kiev (2 days?). I really only want to go there to see Chernobyl and Pripyat. I realize with 4 days in each place I still have lots of time, even if I do 4 months. Feel free to suggest other places to go/things to do/modes of transportation! I'd like to leave sometime in March or April if it's possible. I haven't looked into getting a visa just yet, but a friend of mine got hers within a few weeks, and is doing a similar trip to what I'm planning.

I'm sorry I can't be more exact with what exactly I'm looking for in an answer, I just don't really have an idea of where to begin. I'll be talking to my father, as he has travelled quite a lot around Europe (although 30 years ago). I'm just trying not to rely on him because he can be really frustrating to talk to, and I want to try to do this trip mostly on my own.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

[WillTravel]

Here is what I would do personally, if following this itinerary (or something close to it), but of course take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

4 days in each spot might sound like a lot, but if you add daytrips to a lot of these places, you could easily add more days. Also keep in mind travel time. It's quite possible to have 4 nights somewhere, but only 3 actual days of sightseeing.


Leave Vancouver, Canada -> Dublin, Ireland
This might not be the cheapest city to start off with. I rarely see good prices from Vancouver to Dublin. Usually Vancouver - Glasgow or London is cheaper.

Dublin -> Belfast
Eagle can probably help here, but I suspect bus is the cheapest. Look at www.megabus.co.uk and www.nationalexpress.com and www.eurolines.com .

Belfast -> Glasgow, Scotland
Maybe a flight is best. That could be true for a lot of your destinations. This is one factor that will have changed hugely since your dad travelled Europe. Look at www.whichbudget.com and www.skyscanner.net .

Glasgow -> London, England
Train or flight or bus. For trains, look at virginrail.co.uk (but there are other sites too). Don't miss Edinburgh!

London -> Amsterdam, Netherlands
Probably a flight is best. I have done EasyJet on this route.

Amsterdam -> Paris, France (Maybe Brussels on the way?)
Probably by train is best, although bus may be cheaper if you don't buy far in advance. You could arrange the trains to stop for the day in Brussels, if that was all you wanted. Or you could go Amsterdam to Brugge, overnight in Brugge, and on to Paris.

Paris -> Corsica
I'm not sure of this one, if there's a flight or not, or where you take a ferry, but you can look into it.

Corsica -> Rome, Italy
I suspect that if you use a flight, it's probably costly, but worth investigation.

Rome -> Athens, Greece
I'd do a flight for this one.

Athens -> Kiev, Ukraine (Chernobyl)
I wonder if there are any budget flights for this route. Also, I would say that if you are spending a lot of time and money to get to Kiev, I would spend more than 2 days there. It's supposed to have many wonderful attractions. I suspect Kiev might be cheaper if you go via a central European country, like maybe from Germany. But investigate.

Kiev -> Vancouver, Canada
Having an open-jaw flight is a good idea, but again, I suspect Kiev to Vancouver will be a very expensive flight. I would consider something like flying into Glasgow and out of Frankfurt, using trains, buses, and budget flights to make your way among all your destinations. You can figure out the time/money issue, but if you have some flexibility in your destinations, it can save you thousands (no kidding).

If you really want to fly into Dublin and out of Kiev, I would expect your ticket from Vancouver to be at least $1600 at least during the summer. For your itinerary within Europe just as you've written it, I'd expect transport costs of $1000 to $2000. $100-120 CAD/day as a budget excluding transport will not be luxurious, but is probably doable to allow you to stay in hostels, eat a decent diet, use local transport, see some attractions, and hopefully have a few fun nights out.

[Eagle]

niknar,

First of all, welcome to the Boards! I have a few comments regarding some of your questions.

To begin with, the duration of your trip (4-5 months) is somewhat of a concern. Under the terms of the Schengen Visa, tourists entering one of the member countries are allowed to stay for a maximum of 90 days and can not re-enter for 180 days (SEE wiki.answers.com/Q/A_Schengen_tourist_visa_allows_ninety_days_of_travel_within_certain_countries_-_which_countries_are_they_and_specifically_do_they_include_Czech_Republic_or_Switzerland for further information). Penalties can be severe for those caught violating the rules, including (I believe) deportation for a period of up to 10 years and perhaps fines. It would be a good idea to become familiar with the Schengen rules so that you don't have any problems. These rules weren't in place 30 years ago when your Father was travelling around Europe.

As you've noted, you'll need a Visa for travel to Russia. You might want to have a look at www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/report_rapport-eng.asp?id=249000 for more complete information on travel in Russia (note the warnings!). Given your budget amount and the "challenges" of travelling in Russia, my suggestion would be to leave this for a future trip.

I'm not sure whether travel for five months will be feasible on Cdn$7000-8000? Even at a rate of Cdn$85 per day, you'd require $12,750 or so for five months, which doesn't include air fares. Your budget would "fit" a 90-day trip somewhat better.

I'm assuming this is your first trip to Europe, so I'd highly recommend reading the Guidebook Europe Through The Back Door to begin with. It will answer a lot of questions, including money and language issues, Itinerary planning and especially rail skills. As you live in Vancouver, you might check your local TV listings for KCTS (PBS TV station from Seattle), as the author of that book also produces TV shows called Travels In Europe (these have been airing lately at 19:30 on weeknights, but have been a bit "sporadic" in the last month or so).

In most cases, getting around by rail is the easiest method, although for longer legs the budget airlines are a good choice. However, there are a few caveats to keep in mind with Euro budget airlines:

- tickets are usually non-refundable and non-changeable once purchased.

- they usually have VERY restrictive weight limits and those over the limit will PAY.

- they sometimes use quite "out of the way" airports (ie: Paris Beauvais) which are a considerable distance outside the city centres. Therefore the time and cost to get to and from the cities must be included.

A Railpass may or may not be a cost effective option. You'll need to have a look at each of the rail trips you'll be making and try to estimate the cost of Point-to-Point tickets for those before deciding on a Railpass. One IMPORTANT point to note is that Railpasses DO NOT include the reservation fees that are compulsory on some trains (usually the high speed trains such as the TGV in France that travels at 300 kmH). Those must be paid separately. Once you've got your Itinerary more or less organized, try to enter the details into www.railsaver.com to see what combination or pass the website suggests (I believe this is provided by Rail Europe, so keep that in mind).

For travel in the more "unusual" locations such as Russia, you might also check the Lonely Planet ThornTree Boards, as they cover a wider variety of destinations and have a larger user base.

The destinations you've listed are all good, although I can't offer any comments on Kiev or Russia. However, Corsica is not a destination we see too often. Hopefully MTH will see this post as I'm sure she will have some thoughts on Corsica. You might also have a look at some of the destinations that are popular with many of us here. For example, the Cinque Terre in Italy or the small village of Gimmelwald in Switzerland.

I'm sure the others will have some comments also.

Good luck with your planning!

[niknar]

Thank you for the quick and informative replies! I know some of what I said was pretty misinformed, but that's why I posted here!

From what you guys have said, I'm thinking a 3-3.5 month trip would be more feasible? I really don't want to go any less than 3 months. Maybe mid-March to late May/early June?

I think going Vancouver -> Glasgow would be better, and I'll leave Ireland for another trip. This way it will likely be easier to go to Edinburgh, and probably cheaper, no?

As much as I hate to say it, I think I'll have to leave Kiev and the surrounding area for another trip. It's my dream to visit Chernobyl but your advice makes sense!

How does Scotland (Glasgow) -> England -> Netherlands -> Germany -> France -> Switzerland -> Italy -> Greece (Athens) sound? I figure staying on the mainland will be more cost effective, with Corsica fitting in if I have money for it. Going by train seems to be the way to go in a lot of cases. Going this route would allow me to visit "Cinque Terre in Italy or the small village of Gimmelwald in Switzerland" as well.

I'll do some research about the Schengen, thanks for the link!

I've tried to address everything you two posted, if I've missed something I apologize, it was a long day today and I'm pretty tired!

P.S. - I actually live in Kamloops, but will likely be flying out of Vancouver. Eagle, how about this weather! Where did the snow go?

EDIT: I read through Eagle's link about the Schengen, and only a few of the countries I'd like to go to are part of it. What are the rules about travelling through the other countries? Do I need a visa for each, or is there an EU visa I should be looking at. Also, if I cut my trip to 3-3.5 months, staying less than 90 days in the Schengen zone shouldn't be a problem.

[WillTravel]

The Glasgow to Edinburgh trip is very easy. Either by train (about an hour) or by bus (a little longer, I think). No need to prebook any travel between those two cities.

I didn't mean to discourage Ireland if that's what you want. It's pretty cheap to get to Ireland from Scotland or England. It's just that it's rarely a good deal to fly there straight from Vancouver.

The UK and Ireland are not in Schengen. Typically, you are allowed to stay in the UK for 6 months as a tourist, if you can prove sufficient means and immigration is satisfied that you will not overstay. (I think Ireland is similar, but not sure.) So combining the UK with your European trip should not be a problem. On your above list, the UK is not in Schengen, and Ukraine (last time I checked) is not in Schengen, but all of your other countries are in Schengen.

One other suggestion - consider flying out of Seattle. You could go down a day or two before, stay in the new hostel which is right by the light rail to the airport, and often get a much cheaper fare than is possible from Vancouver. (Not always, though, as the airfares are very tricky here.) Or you can fly out of Seattle and back into Vancouver, and vice versa. Just don't do anything that doesn't leave you with plenty of leeway should some connection go bad, as can so easily happen.

[Eagle]

niknar,

A few thoughts on your most recent questions....

A trip of 3 to 3.5 months would be good, as it would be easier to manage financially and also less likely to run into problems with the Schengen limits.

As WT mentioned, it should still be possible to fit in a few days in Ireland at the beginning, even if it's just Dublin (be sure to visit the Temple Bar district). The advantage of starting here is that the "culture shock" and language issues will be much easier.

Thanks for the clarification on your home location. In your situation you might consider starting from Kelowna, as that provides good access to the larger airports (Vancouver, Calgary or Seattle). My preference lately has been to choose flights to Calgary as flights from Vancouver involve "backtracking" (ie: I have to travel west and then travel for an hour or so back over Kelowna, so that seems like a two hour waste of time). However, the disadvantage is that there seems to be less selection in terms of international flights from Calgary.

Actually, I was at the Travel Agent about half an hour ago checking on flights to Europe, and it's looking likely that I'll be using Calgary again this year. It looks like it will be Air Canada once again as they seem to have the best timing for the dates that I want to travel. One of the advantages of using one carrier for the entire flight is that I won't have to worry about my checked luggage until I arrive at the destination.

Leaving in March is a bit of a disadvantage as most of the charter airlines won't start their Europe runs until later in the year (ie: Air Transat). You may be able to find flights into the U.K. using Canadian Affair. I've never used them, but haven't heard of any problems. Have a look on the web or speak with a Travel Agent, but you may find that Air Canada is the best option for you as well.

What are the rules about travelling through the other countries? Do I need a visa for each, or is there an EU visa

No, you won't need a Visa for the E.U. countries. Your Passport will be stamped at the first country and that's the "Visa" for entry requirements. It will also be stamped in the last country as you depart for home. However, there may be Visa requirements if you're planning to visit some of the countries in eastern Europe or Turkey (I believe the Visa for Turkey can be purchased at the airport on arrival, but they require US$60 in exact change).

The book Europe Through The Back Door will answer a lot of these questions. BTW, check your PBS listings for this week and next week, as the travel shows will be airing at 19:30 Tue-Wed-Thu. I believe he's in Iran tonight which probably won't be of much interest, but in Spain on Wed. & Thu.

Some comments on your destinations:

> I don't like to shortchange Glasgow, but you might consider Edinburgh instead. Most here seem to prefer it.

> Other destinations you might consider in England are York and Bath (both are wonderful!). Check www.hihostels.com/ for Hostel listings in each city (the HI property in York is in a beautiful old house, and an easy walk from both the city centre and the Railway Museum).

> Where else do you want to go in "Netherlands -> Germany -> France -> Switzerland -> Italy -> Greece" There are lots of cities, so it you'll need to narrow that down. Check a few Guidebooks for some ideas.

If you're going to start in the Republic of Ireland (as opposed to Northern Ireland), be sure to take a few Euros along, until you can get settled and get to an ATM. If you're going to start in the U.K., take a few Pounds Sterling instead (you'll need Euros at some point anyway and Swiss Francs eventually).

For ATM use, note that your travel funds must be in a chequing account with a four-number PIN. It's a good idea to have a "backup" ATM card and at least one credit card. My primary ATM card malfunctioned on my last trip, so I really believe in having a backup! The problem was due to some kind of "coding issue" between the Banks but they eventually got it sorted.

Good luck with your planning!

[madamtrashheap]

Aha, missed a good chunk of the conversation yesterday, but will throw my bit in on Corsica if it's not too late. If you have considered visiting the island, and are still able to keep it in, then you won't be disappointed. It can get hectic in August, so try to visit from May onwards. In terms of how long to spend there, at least 3 full days would be good, unless you intend to really explore the island (up into the mountains, circumnavigate the island) in which case 1 week would do it, but I suspect this would be too much time out of your itinerary.

There are a few options on travel to Corsica:
From Paris, you could fly direct to Corsica (Ajaccio or Bastia) with Air France.

If you find yourself in Nice (ie on the way to Cinque Terre, depending on the final order of your itinerary), you could fly (there's an airline called CCM - Compagnie Corse Méditerranée, last I heard they were a subsiduary of Air France, or try www.aircorsica.com ) from Nice to Ajaccio.

Alternatively, you can take the ferry from Nice to Corsica (which takes around 4 hours during the day, depending on the port - Ajaccio, Calvi or Bastia).

Getting from Corsica to Italy will depend on the eventual itinerary, however I'd suggest perhaps flying Paris to Corsica, then a ferry from Corsica (Bastia) to Genova (Genoa) for just under 5hrs, then on to Cinque Terre before going up to Switzerland (via Lake Como perhaps), then back into Italy, ending in Rome, and on to Greece. That will allow a visit to Cinque Terre and still continue in a relatively logical order. If you decide you want to spend time in Nice or somewhere on the Riviera, then simply decide if you want to do this before or after Corsica and check connections accordingly.

Hopefully that gives you a better idea of how to place Corsica (and CT) in your itinerary).

[niknar]

Lots of info to read and sort through! Thanks a lot, you are all helping clarify things very nicely! I greatly appreciate it!

As WT mentioned, it should still be possible to fit in a few days in Ireland at the beginning, even if it's just Dublin (be sure to visit the Temple Bar district). The advantage of starting here is that the "culture shock" and language issues will be much easier.

This is exactly my reasoning for starting in an English-speaking region. I speak some French, but not nearly as much as I like.

Where else do you want to go in "Netherlands -> Germany -> France -> Switzerland -> Italy -> Greece" There are lots of cities, so it you'll need to narrow that down. Check a few Guidebooks for some ideas.

So far my plan is to go through the capital cities, mostly for sake of convenience finding hostels/trains etc. Like I've said before, nothing is concrete and I'll likely be getting a rail pass, so I hope I can go other places too if it works.

Can someone explain Eurail passes to me? It looks like there are a few different types, and I'm slightly confused as to which one I should be looking at. Also, what would be the simplest way to obtain one, and when should I do this? I assume stations are very common and easy to navigate as well?

I'm not too worried about making it to Ireland this trip. I'm only 18, so I have lots of time to go back.

What is your experience with booking hostels and trains? As far as I understand most trains don't need a reservation, but some hostels are booked far in advance. If I book a hostel in Glasgow or Edinburgh for when I arrive, will it be a problem to find hostels as I make my way through Europe?

Lastly, would it be smart for me to see a Travel Agent? Will they be able to do much for me?

If I've missed anything you need answered or addressed, feel free to say so! Thanks again for all your help!

[WillTravel]

It wouldn't hurt to go see someone at TravelCuts or STATravel, but keep in mind they make a commission from selling you rail passes and other things, but they don't make any commission (generally speaking) from budget flights or budget buses. What I would consider a good idea is researching very well on your own, so you know what the options are, and then talking to a travel agent to make sure that you haven't missed anything. I am a bit reluctant to trust travel agents, and I know they don't always find the same deals I do, but certainly talking to one could be a good idea.

I tend to go for capital cities too, but every time I've spent time in a smaller city (with the possible exception of Gothenburg, Sweden and even then I can think of positive aspects), I've found it very worthwhile.

With trains, the main issue is whether you want to save money by prebooking to get the cheapest rates (e.g. it's quite common in the UK to say spend 15 pounds if you book well in advance for the ticket, but 60 pounds if you buy it the same day, and other countries typically operate about the same).

It's quite possible some pass will be helpful for part of your trip, but you probably don't need to spend the money to have a pass for your entire trip. A EurRail pass will not cover the UK (you would need a BritRail pass), and the pass is very unlikely to be economical in Italy, Spain, and eastern Europe. For the UK, you can likely find prebooked flights, trains, and buses instead of a BritTail pass. For continental Europe, figure out if one leg of your journey would benefit from the pass, because it's doubtful all of it would.

[niknar]

I apologize if this is getting off-topic for this area of the forum. If you can move it for me I'd greatly appreciate it. It's just easier to have all questions in one post, and I don't think my post really fits anywhere exactly. If not, I can make a new thread in the approriate area. Thanks!

Alright, so here is my rough itinerary so far.

Depart Vancouver March 6. (open jaw flight $1076)
Arrive London March 8.
Depart London March 13. (flight $93)
Arrive Dublin March 13.
Depart Dublin March 20. (flight $114)
Arrive Glasgow March 20.
Depart Glasgow March 26. (train ~$20)
Arrive Edinburgh March 26.
Depart Edinburgh March April 3. (flight $148)
Arrive Amsterdam April 3.
Depart Amsterdam April 8. (1st day Eurail Select Pass [4 countries,6 days] $411)
Arrive Frankfurt April 8.
Depart Frankfurt April 13. (train pass 2nd day)
Arrive Paris April 14.
Depart Paris April 22. (train pass 3rd day)
Arrive Nice April 23.
Depart Nice April 30. (train pass 4th day)
Arrive Rome May 1.
Depart Rome May 8. (train pass 5th day)
Arrive Naples May 8.
Depart Naples May 15. (train pass 6th day)
Arrive Rome May 15.
Depart Rome May 16. (flight $81)
Arrive Athens May 16.
Depart Athens May 26. (open jaw flight)
Arrive Vancouver.

Total transport cost: approx. $2000

Any thoughts or suggestions? Any experience with booking hostels in these areas and where I should be looking into booking in advance?

I'd like to get to Berlin instead of Frankfurt if I can, so it would mean taking the train from Amsterdam -> Berlin -> Paris. These are both very long trips, are they not? Is this possible on the train? Flying this route will be about $400.

Also, since I will be travelling with a backpack rather than carrying a suitcase around, what do I need to look out for in terms of weight restrictions and security? I don't want to have to lug my backpack around everywhere if I don't have to. Will any hostels have secure areas where I can leave it? Anything else I should look out for, or just any advice regarding travelling with a backpack?

I'll be using a Visa (credit card) to pay for most things, so I'm going to try to get to the bank on Monday to get one. It'll be linked to my parents, as my friend did, so when I need money I have them do it, instead of having a card someone can steal and spend thousands on.

I'm basically ready to book flights and trains, so how does this sound to you guys? I'd like to start getting things solidified on Monday, finding somewhere to stay the 16th and 17th in Dublin is going to be hell. Might have to drop some serious cash those two nights, or sleep outside. Any ideas for this? I understand it is foolish to have left booking until this point, but I've gotta make do I guess.s

Thanks for your input!

EDIT:

Hostel (for itinerary above):
London = $160
Dublin = ??
Glasgow = $105 CDN
Edinburgh = $120 CDN
Amsterdam = $220 CDN
Frankfurt = $150 CDN
Paris = $340 CDN
Nice = $150 CDN
Rome = $175 CDN
Naples = $120 CDN
Athens = $160 CDN
"Padding" for extra expenses = $300

Total = $2000

Total Cost of Trip = $4000

This is without food and any activities (and Dublin) of course. However, it still seems like less money than I thought.

Expenses not taken into account:
Food
Taxi (maybe)
Activities (Museums, Castles etc.)

How does this sound so far? Do my costs seem reasonable? Hostel prices were found on hostelbookers.com. Am I missing anything? Thanks again for all your help!

One last thing. What is your experience with language barriers in non-English speaking countries? My understanding is that most people will speak at least some English. I'm mainly worried about Netherlands, Germany but mostly Italy and Greece. What should I be bringing or preparing for? Thanks again, I greatly appreciate your guys' help. I understand this is a long and complicated post with many questions. Thanks for taking the time to help me.

[cruella]

It kinda looks like you're doing some backtracking in some areas.

From London, you can take a train directly to Edinburgh. I believe it's about 4 hours. There is also a direct night train that leaves London around midnight and gets to Edinburgh at 7:30 in the morning. Train to Glasgow, then you can fly to Dublin.

From Dublin, fly to your German destination (either Berlin or Frankfurt). It's a 6.5 hour train ride to Amsterdam from Berlin, whereas it's about 4 hours from Frankfurt. Amsterdam to Paris is an easy route by train and Paris to Nice could be done as an overnight train. Then head to Rome and Naples. You could probably fly to Athens directly from Naples.

www.eurotrip.com is a great website for itinerary planning. You can input the cities and it draws a line to follow your journey. You can also use the built in railsaver feature and figure out what railpass would be best suited for your trip.