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Post by Anja on Jan 1, 2003 13:46:59 GMT -5
Hi there,
This april and march I'm going to travel through Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Turkey with a friend.
I know Italy is very expensive but Turkey, for example, is quite a bargain.
We want to go camping as much as possible and we will use an Interrailcard, so our main transportation is already covered.
Can anyone tell me if an average of 20 Euros a day is reasonable?
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Post by nitsansh on Jan 1, 2003 17:01:56 GMT -5
20 Euros a day is a tight budget even in Turkey!
I spent a week in Istanbul 3 years ago and it cost me about 250$! I don't think you'll find many camping sites in Turkey, and lot of campings around Europe are open only in the summer season. Also, March would be too cold for camping IMO.
I don't think Rail pass is a good deal in those countries - except for Italy, none of those countries offer good value for rail pass holders. Bus is often a better way to go in Spain, Portugal, Greece or Turkey. Look out for cheap air fares for long distance trips such as Spain to Italy.
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Post by Eagle on Jan 2, 2003 0:11:52 GMT -5
Anja,
Thought I would add another reply to your question. 20 Euros per day seems a bit low (is that intended to cover food, camping fees & misc. charges for both of you?). Also, Italy north of Rome is often more expensive than south of Rome (you didn't say which part of Italy you were going to?) Rates will probably be a bit cheaper in Mar./Apr. as it's "off season" (might be a bit cold for camping in some areas?) Finally, if you haven't bought the rail card yet, you should check the rates, as I understand Eurail rates have changed for 2003 (check the Rick Steves site, he's got lots of good information). Hope this helps (hope you'll post an update on how well the 20 Euros/day worked for you). Good Luck and Happy Travels!
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Post by Anja again on Jan 2, 2003 8:42:31 GMT -5
Oops something went wrong. We each have 20 Euros a day (we don't have to scrape by on that budget together thank god) Is it really too cold to camp in march and april? I thought the weather in those countries would be quite pleasant by then...  I know that Turkey doesn't have many campsites but I saw on hostelworld.com that you can find hostels for something like 6/8 Euro a night there. That's not too expensive I guess. We figured we would spent a little less then 20 Euros a day in Portugal and Turkey and a little more in Italy (cause we do want to visit cities like Venice, Florence and Rome) but I guess that's a little too optimistic  We both love to travel by train...I wouldn't know why they don't offer good value? Thanx again. |
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Post by nitsansh on Jan 2, 2003 11:14:04 GMT -5
Yes. At the time I visited Istanbul, 6-8$ a night was the price for dorm bed in hostels. But I still ended spending 30$ a day...
Even though food is cheap, you still spend 10-15$ a day just to avoid hunger... and there are other costs as well... sight seeing, transportation, and what I call miscelenous which add up to some 5$ a day... so you need 20-25$ a day minimum in Istanbul. Elsewhere in Turkey it might be cheaper, and you can survive on 15$ a day. But this is near starvation budget... it means you should count your bucks and avoid attractions because they would put you over the budget, and go to the cheapest hostels which are litterally dirt cheap. In short, you'll feel poor because many things you wouldn't afford.
And for the same level of starvation budget, you'll need 40-50$ a day in Italy, and not much less in Spain, Portugal or Greece.
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Post by nitsansh on Jan 2, 2003 11:25:05 GMT -5
As to the weather...
Here are the average temp:
Barcelona: March 9-16, April 11-18.
Madrid: M 5-15, A 7-18
Sevilla: M 9-20, A 11-24
Granada: M 5-17, A 7-20
Lisbon: Lisbon M 10-17, A 12-20
Lagos: M 10-18, A 12-20
By my yardstick, under 10 degrees is too cold to camp out. Inland places like Madrid are really chilly. And also, there's good chance of rain in March+April.
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Post by Anja on Jan 2, 2003 12:34:13 GMT -5
 My Lonely Planet is obviously more optimistic! Anyway, I see your point! Thanx...
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Post by Kim on Jan 2, 2003 12:45:14 GMT -5
Have to agree with Nitsansh-it's going to be pretty chilly camping out-not to mention the rain and other weather factors. I would bank on many campgrounds not even being open that time of year.
Plus, often the campgrounds are a ways out and without a vehicle, they can be hard to access. Public transportation is not that frequent to many of them.
Kim
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Post by Anja on Jan 2, 2003 14:19:12 GMT -5
This is what LonelyPlanet says about the countries we want to visit. (The value of the Euro and the US Dollar are roughly the same) Spain --> US$20 a day (This would involve staying in the cheapest possible accommodation, avoiding eating in restaurants or going to museums or bars, and not moving around too much) Portugal --> US$25 (On a rock-bottom budget - using hostels or camping grounds and mostly self-catering - in the high season) Italy --> US$35 (if you stay in hostels, make your own sandwiches, avoid indulging in alcohol and don't visit too many museums) Greece --> US$20 (You'd be hitching, staying in youth hostels or camping, staying away from bars, and only occasionally eating in restaurants or taking ferries) Turkey --> US$20 (Using buses and trains, staying in pensions, and eating one restaurant meal daily) Maybe it will be a little chilly to camp in March but we'll spend most of our time in the south of Spain and Portugal and if I look at those temperatures I think it could often be more than 10 degrees. I think each city must at least have 1 campsite open all year and doubt if they'll be that hard to reach. If so, we can stay in a hostel now and then...but not everyday (I hope). We have enough money to make our budget 25 Euros a day but not more I think. Well, we'll see how far we come  |
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Post by Kim on Jan 2, 2003 14:39:40 GMT -5
I think all we are saying is just do your research before hand as if you get there and find out there are no campgrounds open, your budgeting plans will be completely ruined.
I've been to all those places except Turkey and we did it as cheap as we could as we travelled for 7 months, and it would be seriously tough to do it for those amounts. We made our own lunches every day and cooked when we could but many hostels don't have kitchens-espcially in Spain, Portugal etc. You could do it for that much, but then you would miss out on so much, going out, seeing sights-those are all part of the experience.
The other thing you have to account for is the unexpected expenses-mandatory train reservations, public transport, laundry..
It's not that we are saying you can't do it or trying to be negative, but just to have a realistic expectation-otherwise your trip would be cut short and you would be disappointed.
Kim
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Post by Anja on Jan 2, 2003 15:12:42 GMT -5
I know Kim, and I am thankful that you are sharing your experiences! I'm asking everybody for information, on the internet and among friends who have "been there, done that"... You're right that it wouldn't be nice to miss out on so much... Maybe we'll work a little longer and go a month later...who knows... |
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Post by nitsansh on Jan 2, 2003 19:38:12 GMT -5
This is what LonelyPlanet says about the countries we want to visit. (The value of the Euro and the US Dollar are roughly the same) Which edition of LP is it? Even the newest one has 2-years old prices. In the last year Euro has strenghened by 20% against the US$. This alone will make these prices meaningless. Spain --> US$20 a day (This would involve staying in the cheapest possible accommodation, avoiding eating in restaurants or going to museums or bars, and not moving around too much) Back in 1990, I spent 700$ for 2-weeks trip in Spain, excluding airfare. Well... it wasn't the survival budget you plan... I stayed at hostels and cheap hostales (the latter cost on average 10$ a night) and ate at cheap restaurants (5-7$ per meal), didn't avoid museums, sights and entertainment, also did some shopping, and travelled between 9 places (5 of these were day trips). My budget was 30$ a day and travel cost was around 200$ for 2 weeks. If you avoid seeing sights and don't move around, what's the point of travelling??? Turkey --> US$20 (Using buses and trains, staying in pensions, and eating one restaurant meal daily) It might be enough in the countryside, excluding transport. Turkey is a huge country and if you travel around, even if it's cheap you still spend some money. I suggest that calculate travel cost on top of the regular budget, as these are measured by distance and not per diem. Maybe it will be a little chilly to camp in March but we'll spend most of our time in the south of Spain and Portugal and if I look at those temperatures I think it could often be more than 10 degrees. But it could also be less... if the average low temp is 10, you should expect anything between 5-15. I think each city must at least have 1 campsite open all year and doubt if they'll be that hard to reach. I agree with Kim about this. Campsites are usually outside the cities and often inaccesible by public transport. You'll waste plenty of time and money just to get to them. I learned my lesson about the importance of location when I visited Brugge in Belgium. I opted for a dorm bed in a hostel at the suburb that cost 350 Franks (1$=35F at that time) instead of a double in a hostel at the city center that cost 450, because I thought that's too expensive. But to get to the cheaper hostel I spent half-hour and 35F each way for a bus, so effectively I wasted an hour and saved just 30F. If so, we can stay in a hostel now and then...but not everyday (I hope). We have enough money to make our budget 25 Euros a day but not more I think. Well, we'll see how far we come Well... it's still too low... I would suggest not to go under 30... this is what you would need in Greece or Portugal... If you come to a situation that you should decide between sights and food, because you have no money for both, that means you under-estimated your budget. You should also calculate some 10% extra for "unpredicted expenses" and don't forget the miscelanous... this include expenses like laundry, communication (phone, internet, mail), luggage storage, maps, reservation/supplement for train, port tax for ferry (Greece-Italy), and many other small expenses - 1-2$ here and there add up quickly... |
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Post by nitsansh on Jan 2, 2003 20:00:07 GMT -5
We made our own lunches every day and cooked when we could but many hostels don't have kitchens-espcially in Spain, Portugal etc. The hostels I stayed in Spain and Turkey had no members kitchens - if I wanted hot meal I must have eaten in restaurants... this wasn't too bad as prices were reasonable - for my budget at least... Let's Go was very helpful to find cheap restaurants... But even one hot meal a day (normally in the evening), a snack or fruit and sandwitches for lunch, and also breakfast - will cost you about 15$ a day minimum. And no visit is complete if you don't taste some of the local dishes... can you visit Italy and not eat a real Pizza and Pasta? visit Spain and not eat Paella or Gazpacho? Greece without Gyros or Suflaki? [/quote] |
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Post by Anja on Jan 3, 2003 16:23:51 GMT -5
Hi again, I got those numbers from www.lonelyplanet.com so I guess there are quite recent. Right now the Euro is worth more than the US Dollar indeed, so that would be an advantage I guess. Maybe in a few weeks/months it will be the other way around, but still roughly the same. So I don't think these numbers are meaningless. Also, I think it's more likely that a guidebook exaggerates the costs a little than that they are too optimistic. (My sister for example traveled through Thailand and her average budget a day was 13,5 Euros ,including lodging, food, transport and a little sightseeing. According to LP she had to expect something between 15 and 25. ) Of course we want to see some sights now and then and yes, we'll try a Italian pizza and Turkish kebab but not every day. I know Italy is very expensive but I think Venice for example is an open air museum itself. As for Turkey, a 2001 guide/interrailbook I got from the library says travelling from the north (Istanbul) to the south (Bodrum e.g.) is about 15 Euros if you take a bus. So...I doubt If we'll spend so much money on travelling there... I cant' believe campings beeing inaccesible by public transport. Friends of mine also went camping during their trip in Europe and they said they were perfectly accesible by bus and/or metro. Why would they be inaccesible, they want campers dont they? On the internet I found some campings already that are open all year. If it will be a little chilly that's bad luck then, but I don't expect we'll freeze to death.  |
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Post by nitsansh on Jan 3, 2003 20:26:28 GMT -5
I suggest that you wait a few weeks, or even days, until the new LP Guides reach the shops... they should be out in January... Let's Go and Rick Steves have already published their 2003 books... These should have the latest information on prices...
I don't know when LP website was updated, but it could be a year or two, and since last year prices in Europe increased 20-25% in US$ terms... You are right that what goes up could go down in 2-3 months time...
In which LP guide you found this quote of 15 Euro for Istanbul-Bodrum? In my LP it's 24$... this just shows you how unreliable are prices in guidebooks... even prices in newly published editions could be out of date because it takes several months between research and publishing. Usually, data in 2003 guidebooks was gathered during summer 2002. I recall that when I travelled in Spain, the actual prices were roughly 10% higher than those in the book.
I didn't say that campsites are innaccesible, but are normally outside the city limit, and therefor it takes valuable time and money to get there. I don't recall seeing any camp site near touristic sites or main stations, which are the favorite locations for travellers.
See my remark about Brugges and the "wisdom" of staying in a remote hostel... location IS important... do you want to spend an hour a day at least for commuting? Any time you spend on rails or roads is less time for sightseeing.
Campsites cater mainly for people who travel by car, not for backpackers travelling in public transportation.
One of the pleasures of backpacking is meeting like minded people. You'll find them in hostels, not campsites.
About the chill... between not freezing or starving to death and feeling comfortable there's a wide margin... and sensitivity to weather is an individual matter... at the same conditions, some people feel good and some others can't bear it...
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